Looking for a flat shooting Limited load for a 6"

[latech15]

Just as the title says. I have a new to me Benny Hill Fat Free 6" gun. This thing is SWEET. I got the gun on Friday and had two matches this weekend. I just loaded up some soft shooting stuff based upon the guy's recommendation who I bought it from and they are nice. Definitely minor, but nice. 3.5 grains of Titegroup loaded out to 1.18 OAL.

From what I have read, I think it is going to take more like 4.3-4.6 grains of titegroup to get to major with that gun. As I said, the smaller loads feel nice but the gun has a bit of flip and it is pretty difficult to get a really quick follow up shot. I have watched some guys shoot and I know it is possible to get a limited gun set up to run FLAT almost like an open gun. That is what I am after. Do I go heavier with heavier springs so that the gun just flips and returns into battery faster, or lighter to reduce overall flip to begin with?

[CocoBolo]

I'd suggest giving Benny a call. Try some 200gr Zeros at @ 4.0 gr of TG, that should be very close to major or just over. Will be about as flat as it gets in a Limited Gun.

There are two kinds of flip, one is at the beginning of recoil, and a stiffer spring will give you more flip early, and the other is at the end of the stroke, late flip, a lighter spring will give you more late flip and a little more zap in the palm. Use a timer and do some drills to figure out what makes you faster.

[G-ManBart]

Just as the title says. I have a new to me Benny Hill Fat Free 6" gun. This thing is SWEET. I got the gun on Friday and had two matches this weekend. I just loaded up some soft shooting stuff based upon the guy's recommendation who I bought it from and they are nice. Definitely minor, but nice. 3.5 grains of Titegroup loaded out to 1.18 OAL.

From what I have read, I think it is going to take more like 4.3-4.6 grains of titegroup to get to major with that gun. As I said, the smaller loads feel nice but the gun has a bit of flip and it is pretty difficult to get a really quick follow up shot. I have watched some guys shoot and I know it is possible to get a limited gun set up to run FLAT almost like an open gun. That is what I am after. Do I go heavier with heavier springs so that the gun just flips and returns into battery faster, or lighter to reduce overall flip to begin with?

I highlighted the part about the flip you see other shooters demonstrating....that's mostly a result of grip and timing, not loads, springs or guns.

Heavier bullets (like 200s) will have more flip, but feel softer. For a 6" gun a lot of people like 165gr bullets as they're sort of a compromise between flip and recoil, but 180s are also very popular.

I'd try either the 165s or 180s and experiment with an 11 and 12.5lb spring at first. That's going to put you in the right ballpark, and the rest is up to you. R,

[CocoBolo]

Just as the title says. I have a new to me Benny Hill Fat Free 6" gun. This thing is SWEET. I got the gun on Friday and had two matches this weekend. I just loaded up some soft shooting stuff based upon the guy's recommendation who I bought it from and they are nice. Definitely minor, but nice. 3.5 grains of Titegroup loaded out to 1.18 OAL.

From what I have read, I think it is going to take more like 4.3-4.6 grains of titegroup to get to major with that gun. As I said, the smaller loads feel nice but the gun has a bit of flip and it is pretty difficult to get a really quick follow up shot. I have watched some guys shoot and I know it is possible to get a limited gun set up to run FLAT almost like an open gun. That is what I am after. Do I go heavier with heavier springs so that the gun just flips and returns into battery faster, or lighter to reduce overall flip to begin with?

I highlighted the part about the flip you see other shooters demonstrating....that's mostly a result of grip and timing, not loads, springs or guns.

Heavier bullets (like 200s) will have more flip, but feel softer. For a 6" gun a lot of people like 165gr bullets as they're sort of a compromise between flip and recoil, but 180s are also very popular.

I'd try either the 165s or 180s and experiment with an 11 and 12.5lb spring at first. That's going to put you in the right ballpark, and the rest is up to you. R,

+1 most 6" gunners are shooting 170's and some down to 155's. They prefer the lighter bullets but they aren't talking about flat like an open gun. When it comes to just flip I'd say more can be done with springs, and I run a 12# spring in my 5" gun because it cuts the flip significantly from a 14# running 185gr loads. I have not done any scientific viedo study of this it is a preception, and the preception is on the 200 gr its even less. However my preference is the 180gr as the gun slows down (preception) with the 200gr.

Not long ago Alamo Shooter was mentoring another shooter and they were both shooting the same ammo in the same gun (Limited), I was RO'ing the Squad, When Alamo Shooter shot the gun was amazingly flat shooting, when the other guy shot it, well he could have put one over the berm pretty easy rushing a second shot. Alamo Shooter is in Construction, swinging a hammer for many years seems to help his gun control, pushing my mouse around for 30 years doesn't have he same affect.

Edited November 22, 2010 by CocoBolo

[Seth]

I like my 6" with a 165 grain bullet, 12# spring, a 19# mainspring and with a moderately radiused firing pin stop. Sounds pretty specific... and it took a lot of ammo in a short time to get the gun to behave the way that I wanted. I tried 170s, 180s, and 200s with lighter recoil springs (10# and 11#) and the gun felt... off... By going to the 165 it took more powder ot make major (5.5gr of 320 at 1.175 with the 165gr JHP) and the gun LIKES it.

I might suggest getting away from TG. Its WAY hot and the gun just soaks up all that heat, making it unshootable after a few round heavy practice runs. I tried it for a while and absolutely hated the heat and the filth.

[latech15]

Good advise Gentlemen,

Yes, I have an idea that the guy in particular could keep that gun flat with most any load. He is strong and has really good grip, stance, posture, etc. That being said, I think it can get better than what I have now. But, then again, I have been shooting open for a year too. I'm used to FLAT.

Two more questions -

Best Supplier for recoil springs for the 6" gun? do I have to specify that it is for a 6" gun?

The gun has a weird rear sight blade. The sides swoop up right at the cut. I want to change out just the blade. Can that be done on a Bo-Mar?

[Seth]

Depends on the gun... but it probably has a stepped recoil spring plug and uses a 5" spring. Take the spring plug out and look inside of it for a step.

I prefer Shooters Connection for supplies.

[latech15]

Plug isn't stepped. Full length.

[Seth]

I'd call Benny and ask his advice. The stepped plug makes replacement springs much easier. I assume the gun is bushing?

[moverfive]

Just as the title says. I have a new to me Benny Hill Fat Free 6" gun. This thing is SWEET. I got the gun on Friday and had two matches this weekend. I just loaded up some soft shooting stuff based upon the guy's recommendation who I bought it from and they are nice. Definitely minor, but nice. 3.5 grains of Titegroup loaded out to 1.18 OAL.

From what I have read, I think it is going to take more like 4.3-4.6 grains of titegroup to get to major with that gun. As I said, the smaller loads feel nice but the gun has a bit of flip and it is pretty difficult to get a really quick follow up shot. I have watched some guys shoot and I know it is possible to get a limited gun set up to run FLAT almost like an open gun. That is what I am after. Do I go heavier with heavier springs so that the gun just flips and returns into battery faster, or lighter to reduce overall flip to begin with?

Actually, you want to go with the lightest spring you can to reduce muzzle rise. And to put things into perspective, I too have a couple of Benny's guns and I knew they could shoot faster but I wasn't getting the results I had expected. Originally I was running a 12# variable and the gun just took too long to settle back down....in the end, I am running a 9# and I now equate the gun to a 1st generation open gun in its ability to track the front sight and speed. I would recommend a 10# at first.....but if you run a stronger spring, the gun will rise more and stay up longer.

Titegroup is a good powder but if you read around you will see that N320 is more heavily favored powder. Due to the price/avialability of N320, shoot Titegroup for practice/local stuff and use N320 in real matches. And one other comment - "softest shooting" doesn't always mean that the gun is performing at its best. Sometimes the load that feels "snappy" is the one that returns to the original point of the aim the quickest while being able to track the sight. That is why you have to shoot a different configuration (powder/bullet weight/spring/etc) in a local match in order to really see how everything is performing. Taking a gun out for basic drills and etc. doesn't always give you a complete representation of the performance.

[lcs]

Just as the title says. I have a new to me Benny Hill Fat Free 6" gun. This thing is SWEET. I got the gun on Friday and had two matches this weekend. I just loaded up some soft shooting stuff based upon the guy's recommendation who I bought it from and they are nice. Definitely minor, but nice. 3.5 grains of Titegroup loaded out to 1.18 OAL.

From what I have read, I think it is going to take more like 4.3-4.6 grains of titegroup to get to major with that gun. As I said, the smaller loads feel nice but the gun has a bit of flip and it is pretty difficult to get a really quick follow up shot. I have watched some guys shoot and I know it is possible to get a limited gun set up to run FLAT almost like an open gun. That is what I am after. Do I go heavier with heavier springs so that the gun just flips and returns into battery faster, or lighter to reduce overall flip to begin with?

I highlighted the part about the flip you see other shooters demonstrating....that's mostly a result of grip and timing, not loads, springs or guns.

Heavier bullets (like 200s) will have more flip, but feel softer. For a 6" gun a lot of people like 165gr bullets as they're sort of a compromise between flip and recoil, but 180s are also very popular.

I'd try either the 165s or 180s and experiment with an 11 and 12.5lb spring at first. That's going to put you in the right ballpark, and the rest is up to you. R,

I disgree with your comments. I have owned a BH 6 inch and I have a Matt Cheely 6 inch topend for my 5". I remember the Benny Hill being light on the front end and Matt's 6 is even lighter than my lightened 5 inch slide and the front end of the gun is very light.

Two of us just did some testing Sunday with my 6 inch. The other shooter is a well known Master and we shot 165, 185, and 200 loads with all the having very close PF . We watched the "flip" of the gun and both of us agreed the 165's were causing a lot more flip than the 180s and the 200s caused even less flip.

I have shot 200gn with Vit 310 for years. You can not find a softer load with less flip. Why would TGO use the same load if 200gn caused more flip the 165 and 180s?

[Seth]

When I was doing load/ spring dev, I did all my testing on the timer at 15 and 10 yards. My splits with the 200/180s were longer by about .05. No matter how hard I pushed I was doing .27 splits. When I went down to the 165gr and the heavier spring, the gun immediately felt snappier and returned to neutral faster. On a 10 yard target I'm much more comfortable with a .21 split that's controlled.

TJ uses a 180gr/ N320 load and likes the gun really lightly sprung... his 6" is running a 9# spring, but he agreed that my gun with my load was as flat as I could hope for. I asked him specifically at the last match I shot to watch the gun while RO'ing me.

Edited November 22, 2010 by Seth

[latech15]

Seth,

I talked to Benny this morning and he gave almost the exact same bullet and springs as yours but he did recommend running 5.0 gr of TG. I have both and will try them both. I do need to get more springs to try though.

He also said that it takes the same springs as a 5" so I must have been mistaken about the stepped plug.

I run 180 gr bayou bullets and would really like to stick with them, but in the end it is whatever runs best.

[lcs]

When I was doing load/ spring dev, I did all my testing on the timer at 15 and 10 yards. My splits with the 200/180s were longer by about .05. No matter how hard I pushed I was doing .27 splits. When I went down to the 165gr and the heavier spring, the gun immediately felt snappier and returned to neutral faster. On a 10 yard target I'm much more comfortable with a .21 split that's controlled.

TJ uses a 180gr/ N320 load and likes the gun really lightly sprung... his 6" is running a 9# spring, but he agreed that my gun with my load was as flat as I could hope for. I asked him specifically at the last match I shot to watch the gun while RO'ing me.

That is an interesting statement.

What recoil spring are you using?

[Seth]

I'm running a 12# spring and a moderately radiused FPS. Todd is local and I took a class with him last summer.... I bought my 6" entirely b/c of taking his class and having the opportunity to shoot his. He swears by light recoil springs, but I was happier AND faster with the 12#. I had originally set my 6" up similarly to his.

[G-ManBart]

Just as the title says. I have a new to me Benny Hill Fat Free 6" gun. This thing is SWEET. I got the gun on Friday and had two matches this weekend. I just loaded up some soft shooting stuff based upon the guy's recommendation who I bought it from and they are nice. Definitely minor, but nice. 3.5 grains of Titegroup loaded out to 1.18 OAL.

From what I have read, I think it is going to take more like 4.3-4.6 grains of titegroup to get to major with that gun. As I said, the smaller loads feel nice but the gun has a bit of flip and it is pretty difficult to get a really quick follow up shot. I have watched some guys shoot and I know it is possible to get a limited gun set up to run FLAT almost like an open gun. That is what I am after. Do I go heavier with heavier springs so that the gun just flips and returns into battery faster, or lighter to reduce overall flip to begin with?

I highlighted the part about the flip you see other shooters demonstrating....that's mostly a result of grip and timing, not loads, springs or guns.

Heavier bullets (like 200s) will have more flip, but feel softer. For a 6" gun a lot of people like 165gr bullets as they're sort of a compromise between flip and recoil, but 180s are also very popular.

I'd try either the 165s or 180s and experiment with an 11 and 12.5lb spring at first. That's going to put you in the right ballpark, and the rest is up to you. R,

I disgree with your comments. I have owned a BH 6 inch and I have a Matt Cheely 6 inch topend for my 5". I remember the Benny Hill being light on the front end and Matt's 6 is even lighter than my lightened 5 inch slide and the front end of the gun is very light.

Two of us just did some testing Sunday with my 6 inch. The other shooter is a well known Master and we shot 165, 185, and 200 loads with all the having very close PF . We watched the "flip" of the gun and both of us agreed the 165's were causing a lot more flip than the 180s and the 200s caused even less flip.

I have shot 200gn with Vit 310 for years. You can not find a softer load with less flip. Why would TGO use the same load if 200gn caused more flip the 165 and 180s?

Obviously, you're free to disagree. I probably should have been more specific when talking about the heavier bullets, and a lot of it depends on the shooter (grip strength etc), perception of recoil and flip, the springs in the gun, and even small things like the firing pin stop profile, but I'll point out that Benny himself recommends the 165gr bullet for his 6" guns:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17086&view=findpost&p=646289

Edited November 22, 2010 by G-ManBart

[Seth]

Huge.... but hopefully this will help.

Shooting video...

[lcs]

I'm running a 12# spring and a moderately radiused FPS. Todd is local and I took a class with him last summer.... I bought my 6" entirely b/c of taking his class and having the opportunity to shoot his. He swears by light recoil springs, but I was happier AND faster with the 12#. I had originally set my 6" up similarly to his.

Hmmmm. I am running a 12 or 12.5 can not remember for sure. The one thing that is important, "The timer does not lie" and if your shooting those fast of spits with accuracy then you have found the combo that works best for you and your gun. .

If I remember correctly BH does bushing barrel. My gun is not a bushing barrel and I'm not sure of the radius on the FPS. I think I will do some experimenting with a lighter recoil spring.

Thanks for the info.

[Seth]

No problem. On that video the targets are at about 17 yards for the statics and about 12 yards for ones I took on the move (I know only b/c I built the stage). That video was taken about a month after I got the gun and have since refined my technique with it further. I REALLY like shooting it.

[lcs]

Obviously, you're free to disagree. I probably should have been more specific when talking about the heavier bullets, and a lot of it depends on the shooter (grip strength etc), perception of recoil and flip, the springs in the gun, and even small things like the firing pin stop profile, but I'll point out that Benny himself recommends the 165gr bullet for his 6" guns:

http://www.brianenos...ndpost&p=646289

I have no doubt Benny recommends 165 for his 6 inch guns.

I think there are many reasons why people would choose 165 over 200s. Cost/availability is a major factor, a steady diet of 200s versus 165s makes for a lot of practice. I agree that grip strength, springs, gun weight, and radius FP stops all contribute to what shoots the best in a particular gun. I also know that VIT 310 powder scares a lot of people.

The theory behind a heavy bullet and a very fast powder is proven not only in 40 but 9 also. Why is a 147gn minor load with Solo 1000 or Tiegroup a heck of lot softer than the same PFwith115s ? How many GM production shooters run 147gn. .

[Merlin Orr]

Lighter bullets make for quicker splits....If you have the proper technique and good hand and forearm strength.

Some people like smooth and rolling recoil - others quick and snappy. You can have either with the proper loads and spring setups.

My personal thoughts (and preferences) line up with what G-Man has already stated.

Work your fingers, wrists and get that "Popeye" forearm and you will be one of those people that everyone accuses of shooting "cheater" minor loads due to the flatness of your gun.....

[G-ManBart]

Obviously, you're free to disagree. I probably should have been more specific when talking about the heavier bullets, and a lot of it depends on the shooter (grip strength etc), perception of recoil and flip, the springs in the gun, and even small things like the firing pin stop profile, but I'll point out that Benny himself recommends the 165gr bullet for his 6" guns:

http://www.brianenos...ndpost&p=646289

I have no doubt Benny recommends 165 for his 6 inch guns.

I think there are many reasons why people would choose 165 over 200s. Cost/availability is a major factor, a steady diet of 200s versus 165s makes for a lot of practice. I agree that grip strength, springs, gun weight, and radius FP stops all contribute to what shoots the best in a particular gun. I also know that VIT 310 powder scares a lot of people.

The theory behind a heavy bullet and a very fast powder is proven not only in 40 but 9 also. Why is a 147gn minor load with Solo 1000 or Tiegroup a heck of lot softer than the same PFwith115s ? How many GM production shooters run 147gn. .

I would be pretty surprised if Benny was making the decision and/or recommendations based on cost/availability. If I was a big name gunsmith, I'd want to tell people to use the best combination I knew about, regardless of cost, then let them make the decision to use something else for their own reasons. I'm sure cost factors into the equation for some folks, but I haven't seen any mention of that in relation to bullet weight and 6" guns specifically, not to say I've seen every comment on the subject.

Softer yes, not always flatter, which is what the thread was about. R,

[smokshwn]

I have no doubt Benny recommends 165 for his 6 inch guns.

I think there are many reasons why people would choose 165 over 200s. Cost/availability is a major factor, a steady diet of 200s versus 165s makes for a lot of practice.

I am confused as to how 200s vs 165s results in a difference in practice?

Also at only .02 cents per round you aren't saving much money between the two.

The theory behind a heavy bullet and a very fast powder is proven not only in 40 but 9 also. Why is a 147gn minor load with Solo 1000 or Tiegroup a heck of lot softer than the same PFwith115s ? How many GM production shooters run 147gn. .

Not everyone wants the softest load. Some want the most consistent tracking load that returns the fastest. Generally two very different things. Given that the OP wants his limited gun to behave like his open gun I would guess the light bullets will give him the best chance at what he is looking for.

[latech15]

Seth, your video is proof that your recipe works for you. That is what I was looking for. I did notice that you were cheating and using one of those "TGO secrets weapons" on your leg though. Just imagine how much better you would be if you wore two of them like he does.

I have a soft load. 3.7 gr of titegroup under 180 gr bayou bullets. It is plenty soft, it won't make major. As a few of you have pointed out, I am not necessarily looking for softer, rather , I am looking for flatter. I am 6' 215, I can handle recoil. I want faster splits.

I shot a indoor match last night and had some bullets loaded with the 3.7 gr of titegroup and some loaded with 4.4 grains of titegroup. The heavier loads definitely tracked better. We shot a triple bill drill and I shot one target with the heavy ones, the next one with the lighter ones and then back to the heavy ones. I shot fairly well on the two heavy loads, I couldn't find the sights to save my life with the light ones.

I did get a few different recoil springs to try out today. I am going to load up some different stuff and try it out.

[Seth]

I hate the brace, but it keeps the ACL from finishing itself off. Its about at 80% torn according to the last MRI.

I haven't been able to channel it into shooting like Robbie though..............