Canting of freestyle grip and relaxation

[aztecdriver]

I was looking at some footage of a recent practice session and noticed that my arm positioning is canting the gun slightly left - very similar to what you see a lot of people do in strong hand only - only not nearly to the same amount, just a few degrees to the left of dead vertical. I had seen this in some other's shooting videos, and actually didn't realize I was doing it myself, until someone asked me about it.

How I got there was after some other critique I'd had about locked arms and over tensing - I made conscious effort to shoot in a more relaxed state, get more bend in my elbows and let my stance with the gun occur more naturally. My grip on all pistols is very high, to the point where I have really cool scars from where my glock slides rub the snot out both sides of the meat of my hand above the webbing between my strong hand thumb and trigger finger. My 1911 (i'm currently shooting a 2011 in limited) offhand grip is high enough that I need to drop the safety off before acquiring a full grip or I might have trouble pushing the safety into the meat of my thumb, and as such if that left hand grip is not firm- it can jump and reengage the safety for me.

Now for the crux of the question. In the working of trying to make my stance and grip more natural and relaxed, I have balanced my elbows so they are roughly in the same plane, instead of having my left side elbow higher. In doing this, it naturally rotates the gun a few degrees to the left. It appears to be something I've done just trying to relax and take some tension out of my stance, it's very natural for me to hold the gun this way - but I'm wondering if it is having any ill effects. Most of my shooting problems have to do with my vision (not physically but seeing what I need to see when I need to see it, blinking, etc). Is there any ill that one could see from this. I can easily correct it now that I've seen I'm doing it, but I'm not sure it's a bad thing as of yet. Any thoughts? I know pictures would help and when I get some time to cut some video up, I'll get that up too.

[Singlestack]

IMO, your sights will track better if you hold it straight.

[G-ManBart]

I may be wrong, but it really sounds like you're trying to do a 2+2=4 scenario with your mechanics, i.e. I move my left elbow here, which raises my right pinky, which adds tension to my left big toe etc. Some of that isn't bad, but after all of that, what matters is how the gun tracks and whether you're able to deliver accurate shots. If the gun is canted, I'd say something isn't quite right. I've learned that shooting with the gun canted with one hand is slower and less accurate than when you rotate your elbow in and force the gun into a vertical position (Manny Bragg class take away). Two hands shouldn't be any different. If you're a little off on your timing with the gun moving vertically, it can still be an Alpha, but if it's moving diagonally, it's likely a Charlie or Delta...not so good. R,

[benos]

Strangely enough, the Burner (Jerry Barnhart) shot with a slight left cant.

But that doesn't matter for you though - just thought I'd throw that out there. And knowing Jerrry, I'm sure he did it on purpose after LOTS of experimentation.

I'm with G-man on not trying to think your way into your shooting position. Experiment with grip and arm position and tension until you find the combination that provides the most consistent sight tracking. And remember, how far the front sight goes up doesn't matter at all. What matters most is that the front sight returns to exactly from where it left, every time.

be

[sirveyr]

I've noticed the left cant in a few shooters that are right handed and left eye dominant.

Try really rotating your weak hand thumb forward. As you know it will raise your left forearm above your right and should straighten things up. Personally, I am not a fan of the "level elbow" grip, but use whatever grip gathers alphas as fast as possible.

[G-ManBart]

I've noticed the left cant in a few shooters that are right handed and left eye dominant.

Perfect example of how shooting absolutely isn't one size fits all! R,

[a63829]

I agree with Bart. I would think holding the gun straight up and down would be better... but shooting is not one size fits all.

[aztecdriver]

Thanks for the great input.

BE, Gman - I agree with that. I'm really looking for example of ill-effect from this, as I kinda determined that I'm more relaxed and present the gun more naturally - and it just kinda happened. Obviously, the thing to look for is sight tracking so I'll do some stuff to see if it's bad or good. Thinking back that some of my bad shots were missing above the shoulders, I really DO see what Gman was saying. I would have hit the A zone on the head tracking straight up.

Then I went hunting for some stills of grips to give an example - and I noticed the cover on Practical Shooting BEyond Fundamentals and low and behold - it looks like THAT. Maybe I have a degree or two more, but not much. Maybe it's the effect of being underneath and looking up - but I swear there is a little right to left there

sirveyr - really the issue isn't so much bringing my thumb back on the grip to even arms - ive got the thumb usually so far forward I could touch the front of the dustcover on my T3, but breaking the wrist over so that itself isn't so jacked in the grip.

I'll play with it - I just was looking to see if there was any definite issue that others have seen that would cause this not to be advantageous. I'm a big guy in the shoulders (AND could use to lose more than a few lbs.), and it's been feeling like I squeeze myself in the chest presenting a lot lately - jacking my wrist up so high leaves me almost feeling like i'm ducking under my arms.

Edited September 24, 2010 by aztecdriver

[benos]

A good drill that tests sight tracking is the Hardball's Headache (invented by Jay Christy). Set up 3 USPSA targets at 12 yards, about 6 feet apart, edge to edge. Draw and shoot to on each head box, reload and repeat. Score it Time Plus, so add .2 of a second for each B hit. That is a great drill.

be

[CZinSC]

If I remember correctly, there are some videos out there where Saul Kirsch explains NOT canting the gun when shooting SH/WH. Again, if I remember correctly he was showing you to get your elbow down so the your arm is straight a straight line, and the elbow down absorbs some of the recoil. I think I'm explaining it right. If I find the videos, I'll come back and update my post.

[benos]

If I remember correctly, there are some videos out there where Saul Kirsch explains NOT canting the gun when shooting SH/WH. Again, if I remember correctly he was showing you to get your elbow down so the your arm is straight a straight line, and the elbow down absorbs some of the recoil. I think I'm explaining it right. If I find the videos, I'll come back and update my post.

I shot my best SW/WH with the above technique. Arm relxed and straight out, gun straight up.

be

[CZinSC]

Thanks BE, glad to see someone like yourself agreeing with this technique. I personally haven't been able to put the principles to work lately, been hard to get to the range for extra trigger time lately.

Here is the video I was speaking of, plus some other good tips from Saul.

SH/WH is the third one down.

Saul Kirsch Tips