Is this legal

[Nik Habicht]

I had a SA converted to DA/SA and carried around that vary note from Amidon. I didn't feel comfortable with it outside of local matches so I sold it and purchased a shadow. For me, it came down to the approved production list. It wasn't worth arguing with match directors.

That was kind of my point above --- I don't want to argue legality at a match....

[Philo_Beddoe]

Giving a thought about this CZ75B SA conversion, i dont think its ever gonna make it to the list. Why? its basically SA, and that is all what it is. CZ75B is the DA/SA one and it is there already.

Not to get a philosophical but what is a cz75b SA? In my view it is a cz75b with a Single action trigger, if the single action trigger has been converted to DA/SA trigger it is no longer a SA and has becomes just a CZ75B, which is why I believed Armidon stated what he did.

CZ75B SA, is a variant of CZ75B that is single action only. I understand that if you change it to DA/SA then it should be CZ75B right? Not quite. Your slide still says CZ75B SA. Does converting the CZ75B to single-action-only make it CZ75B SA?

We are referring to a particular model. whatever you do to that model/variant, it is still that model/variant. That is why for production the rule is simplified as if its not there, it is not legal.

Not until it is listed or published, it is not legal.

Then why did Armidon, the VP of USPSA, say a S/A converted to a DA/SA is legal for prodcution? I think he is more authortative then pretty much anyone.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Philo_Beddoe

[Nik Habicht]

Giving a thought about this CZ75B SA conversion, i dont think its ever gonna make it to the list. Why? its basically SA, and that is all what it is. CZ75B is the DA/SA one and it is there already.

Not to get a philosophical but what is a cz75b SA? In my view it is a cz75b with a Single action trigger, if the single action trigger has been converted to DA/SA trigger it is no longer a SA and has becomes just a CZ75B, which is why I believed Armidon stated what he did.

CZ75B SA, is a variant of CZ75B that is single action only. I understand that if you change it to DA/SA then it should be CZ75B right? Not quite. Your slide still says CZ75B SA. Does converting the CZ75B to single-action-only make it CZ75B SA?

We are referring to a particular model. whatever you do to that model/variant, it is still that model/variant. That is why for production the rule is simplified as if its not there, it is not legal.

Not until it is listed or published, it is not legal.

Then why did Armidon, the VP of USPSA, say a S/A converted to a DA/SA is legal for prodcution? I think he is more authortative then pretty much anyone.

Nope -- unless its published as an interpretation, it's just one more RMI opinion, though that particular RM also happens to DNROI. If he's not the RM at the particular match, the RM at the match is free to ignore any printouts of e-mail conversations.....

[Torogi]

P_B, I know he has more authority than anyone, however, not just because he has that authority he can dictate what is and what can be added to the production list. Just like Nik said, if he is the MD on a match, sure it will fly, but what if its not?

Most of us here sharing our thoughts and advises have gone to numerous matches and i agree, arguing with an RO or MD about legality is the last thing you want to do in a match.

Go ahead and use that in your local match. I dont think anybody will have a problem with it, and on a bigger match if you dont mind getting a chance to be bumped to open, go for it. I had a friend who was shooting glock (Production) on a level 3 match, he forgot to take out that grip tape on the slide towards the rear serration, guess what, even at a bright sunny day, where all color black seems all the same, the RO still saw that and bumped him to open. simple honest mistake.

just sharing..

[Philo_Beddoe]

Giving a thought about this CZ75B SA conversion, i dont think its ever gonna make it to the list. Why? its basically SA, and that is all what it is. CZ75B is the DA/SA one and it is there already.

Not to get a philosophical but what is a cz75b SA? In my view it is a cz75b with a Single action trigger, if the single action trigger has been converted to DA/SA trigger it is no longer a SA and has becomes just a CZ75B, which is why I believed Armidon stated what he did.

CZ75B SA, is a variant of CZ75B that is single action only. I understand that if you change it to DA/SA then it should be CZ75B right? Not quite. Your slide still says CZ75B SA. Does converting the CZ75B to single-action-only make it CZ75B SA?

We are referring to a particular model. whatever you do to that model/variant, it is still that model/variant. That is why for production the rule is simplified as if its not there, it is not legal.

Not until it is listed or published, it is not legal.

Then why did Armidon, the VP of USPSA, say a S/A converted to a DA/SA is legal for prodcution? I think he is more authortative then pretty much anyone.

Nope -- unless its published as an interpretation, it's just one more RMI opinion, though that particular RM also happens to DNROI. If he's not the RM at the particular match, the RM at the match is free to ignore any printouts of e-mail conversations.....

I emailed my question to office@uspsa.org, not Armidon, so his reply was on behalf of USPSA.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Philo_Beddoe

[Philo_Beddoe]

P_B, I know he has more authority than anyone, however, not just because he has that authority he can dictate what is and what can be added to the production list. Just like Nik said, if he is the MD on a match, sure it will fly, but what if its not?

Most of us here sharing our thoughts and advises have gone to numerous matches and i agree, arguing with an RO or MD about legality is the last thing you want to do in a match.

Go ahead and use that in your local match. I dont think anybody will have a problem with it, and on a bigger match if you dont mind getting a chance to be bumped to open, go for it. I had a friend who was shooting glock (Production) on a level 3 match, he forgot to take out that grip tape on the slide towards the rear serration, guess what, even at a bright sunny day, where all color black seems all the same, the RO still saw that and bumped him to open. simple honest mistake.

just sharing..

No offense but that RO is an ass, he should have said something to your friend. Grip tape on the slide is an obvious violation, but it is easily fixed.

[Cy Soto]

Grip tape on the slide is an obvious violation, but it is easily fixed.

True, but keep in mind that rules are rules and RO's are not there to make rules up, just to enforce them.

Edited to fix typo.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Cy Soto

[mhop]

P_B, I know he has more authority than anyone, however, not just because he has that authority he can dictate what is and what can be added to the production list. Just like Nik said, if he is the MD on a match, sure it will fly, but what if its not?

Most of us here sharing our thoughts and advises have gone to numerous matches and i agree, arguing with an RO or MD about legality is the last thing you want to do in a match.

Go ahead and use that in your local match. I dont think anybody will have a problem with it, and on a bigger match if you dont mind getting a chance to be bumped to open, go for it. I had a friend who was shooting glock (Production) on a level 3 match, he forgot to take out that grip tape on the slide towards the rear serration, guess what, even at a bright sunny day, where all color black seems all the same, the RO still saw that and bumped him to open. simple honest mistake.

just sharing..

No offense but that RO is an ass, he should have said something to your friend. Grip tape on the slide is an obvious violation, but it is easily fixed.

so the rules dont matter?

[Philo_Beddoe]

P_B, I know he has more authority than anyone, however, not just because he has that authority he can dictate what is and what can be added to the production list. Just like Nik said, if he is the MD on a match, sure it will fly, but what if its not?

Most of us here sharing our thoughts and advises have gone to numerous matches and i agree, arguing with an RO or MD about legality is the last thing you want to do in a match.

Go ahead and use that in your local match. I dont think anybody will have a problem with it, and on a bigger match if you dont mind getting a chance to be bumped to open, go for it. I had a friend who was shooting glock (Production) on a level 3 match, he forgot to take out that grip tape on the slide towards the rear serration, guess what, even at a bright sunny day, where all color black seems all the same, the RO still saw that and bumped him to open. simple honest mistake.

just sharing..

No offense but that RO is an ass, he should have said something to your friend. Grip tape on the slide is an obvious violation, but it is easily fixed.

so the rules dont matter?

Strawman fallacy.

If you were an RO and you saw someone sign up for production but had a bit of grip tape on the slide what would you do?

1) Say "hey take that grip tape off or I will bump you to open"

or

2) Say nothing and just bump them to open.

YOu could do either one, but if you did the second I would consider you an ass.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Philo_Beddoe

[mhop]

or that he has already shot some stages and there is no way to tell if he gained a signifigant advantage so you have to bump him to open

[Cy Soto]

Did I say that?

If you were an RO and you saw someone sign up for production but had a bit of grip tape on the slide what would you do?

1) Say "hey take that grip tape off or I will bump you to open"

or

2) Say nothing and just bump them to open.

YOu could do either one, but if you did the second I would consider you an ass.

No that I am disagreeing with your first option. If it was me and this was a Level 1 match, heck yeah that I would tell him that. But maybe the RO didn't notice it until after the shooter had begun his COF. Let's not forget that it is up to the shooter to know the rules and comply with them.

[Philo_Beddoe]

or that he has already shot some stages and there is no way to tell if he gained a signifigant advantage so you have to bump him to open

agreed

[Philo_Beddoe]

Did I say that?

If you were an RO and you saw someone sign up for production but had a bit of grip tape on the slide what would you do?

1) Say "hey take that grip tape off or I will bump you to open"

or

2) Say nothing and just bump them to open.

YOu could do either one, but if you did the second I would consider you an ass.

No that I am disagreeing with your first option. If it was me and this was a Level 1 match, heck yeah that I would tell him that. But maybe the RO didn't notice it until after the shooter had begun his COF. Let's not forget that it is up to the shooter to know the rules and comply with them.

I agree if he had already started his COF, then its to late, he would get bumped to open.

However isnt a RO required to tell you why you were bumped out of the division you signed up for?

[Cy Soto]

However isnt a RO required to tell you why you were bumped out of the division you signed up for?

Yes; most certainly!

The only times that I have seen people getting bumped to a different division is if they forgot to "check the box" when they signed up. In this case, the shooter was assumed to be shooting Open.