Vince, Is This Sight Set Permitted In Ipsc Product

[Flexmoney]

If a manufauturer dosnt keep up then they are left behind, I don't exactly think that was the idea behind production or was that what was intended.

Actually that was one of the ideas behind Production Division. We want the manufacturers to offer competitors a better product with more options and, if they don't listen to their customers, they will indeed be left behind.

Yeah...they will be left behind...selling their product to their [real market. (It isn't us compeition shooters).

We are the ones getting left behind. (Well, more so the IPSC Production shooters...USPSA Prodcution allows some sensible/basic modification.)

[Angus Hobdell]

It seems that the new division is muddying the waters.

I suppose Vince is in reality correct an OFM gun as is out of the box no alteration. Again I think that is like hopeing praying for rain in Arizona.

Unless we "issued" the guns, now there would be a thing.

I actually had an idea along those lines for a manufacturers competiton. Maybe I will spell it out one day.

I realise that we have the other divisons if we want to "play" with the guns.

There is lot of sense to having a PD gun that is obtainable by all at a reasonable price that looks feels and shoots good. What a concept.

Vince.

If the manufacuter produce a version of the PD gun with a sight that require machining to fit the original model of the gun can it be retrofitted ie the slide machined on a gun that does not have this sight fitted but is the same model? I know what I mean but does it make sense.

So much of this PD stuff does not.......

[Vince Pinto]

We are the ones getting left behind.  (Well, more so the IPSC Production shooters...USPSA Prodcution allows some sensible/basic modification.)

I strongly disagree, particularly with Point G of the USPSA Production Divison rules which says "Action work to enchance reliability (throating, trigger work, etc.) is allowed".

Apart from the fact that some competitors are spending as much as 70% of the cost of their new gun on additional trigger work and various other improvements (i.e. yet another equipment race), this totally defeats the concept of Production Division.

A production gun should live or die on it's merits. If a gun offered by manufacturer has a reputation for being a piece of unreliable junk, then competitors won't buy it, and they will instead choose a gun which offers them the reliability they expect and deserve, without having to get a gunsmith to fix or modify it.

The "buy a new gun and immediately fix it" mindset is, in my humble opinion, the silliest damn thing which has ever pervaded IPSC shooting.

[Vince Pinto]

If the manufacuter produce a version of the PD gun with a sight that require machining to fit the original model of the gun can it be retrofitted ie the slide machined on a gun that does not have this sight fitted but is the same model?

Unfortunately my Klingon translator is under repair, so I'm not sure that I fully understand your question, so let me make a few simple statements:

1. You cannot machine the slide of a Production Division gun.

2. For factory sights, see Point 19 and 19.3 of IPSC Production Division rules.

3. For aftermarket sights, see Point 20.2 of IPSC Production Division rules.

If, after reading the above, you're still uncertain, tell me the exact model gun you wish to shoot and details of the sights you want to fit, and I'll tell you the answer.

[mcoliver]

As a bit of history, when the Production Division rules were being discussed by the IPSC General Assembly in Cebu in 1999, I was Regional Director for IPSC Hong Kong and I seconded a motion proposed by IPSC Austria (!!) to remove the trigger pull requirement altogether. Sadly the motion was narrowly defeated by a margin of 23 votes to 7

BTW, this is a matter of public record and you can download the actual minutes of the meeting here (see Motion 19.22).

************

19.22 Motion:

That there be no minimum trigger pull in Production Division, and that section h) be deleted.

Moved: Austria

Seconded: Hong Kong

For: 7 Against: 23 Abstain: 4

Denied

************

Awww...real heartbreaker.

[threaddriftalert!]

But why? Were the reasons discussed behind the move to disallow "better" triggers out of the factory?

[/threaddriftalert!]

[Flexmoney]

Apart from the fact that some competitors are spending as much as 70% of the cost of their new gun on additional trigger work and various other improvements (i.e. yet another equipment race), this totally defeats the concept of Production Division.

Vince,

Perhaps you need to take another look at the "concept"?

I can't, for the life of me, figure out why you keep mentioning expensive trigger work? It just doesn't make any sense, nor does it hold water. Sure, there are those out there that pay a lot of money to do all kinds of wacky stuff to their guns. But, spending big money certainly isn't the key to winning!

I'll put my "gun that didn't require financing" up against any and all. If I win or lose...it won't be because Billy Moneybags spent more dough on his blaster.

The equipment race isn't in putting on better sights or cleaning up the trigger...it happens when one type of gun is better suited for the competition than another. That is what drives the equipment race.

Even going with (what I think is) your absurd figure of 80% of the cost of the gun to "fix it"...your "fix" is to buy a whole different gun! That is 100% cost!!!

[Vince Pinto]

Flex,

The concept of Production Division is:

1. No single-action-only guns (Open, Standard, Modified, Limited and L10 are overwhelmingly dominated by guns produced by 2 or 3 "non-mainstream" manufacturers)

2. Guns are essentially "out-of-the-box" (it's a Division for guns produced by mainstream manufacturers, which are used on an WYSIWYG basis, warts 'n' all).

I, like you, know that the bottom line to winning a match is not how much I spend on my gun, but how well I shoot it. However, all else being equal, a guy with a slick trigger will probably beat a guy using an identical gun with a standard factory trigger.

Under IPSC Production Division rules, a Glock 17 is a Glock 17 - period - and Dave Sevigny can kick my ass at a match because he's simply a better shooter using an identical gun. However I'll bet my left nipple that even David would perform modifications to the internals of his Glock 17 if that was allowed by the rules - it's the nature of the tinkering IPSC Beast.

Hell, I've even got guys sending me emails asking me if they can paint flourescent "go faster" stripes along the length of the top of their production gun slide to aid in faster sight acquisition !