Alan550
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Posts posted by Alan550
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Bill, There are other matches that don't appear on the NRA web site since they aren't "sanctioned" by NRA any more. One that's fairly close to you that comes to mind is our match at Bedford, VA, much closer than NY! We shoot AP on the first Saturday of most months, excluding December thru February. The time schedule may present a problem for you since we shut down sign-in at 10:00 AM. According to my search of Google, it's ~3.5 to 4 hours from here to you, so you'd have to "get up with the chickens" as we say out here in the hills! LOL We shoot all 4 Bianchi events if everything is up and running as is usually the case. We dropped NRA sanctioning a few years back when they stopped listing our matches in the magazines. As recently as 2019 we had hosted both State and Regional Championship AP matches here for 10 years and were the 2nd largest participation behind only Bianchi in the nation. Our range was the first in the US to have a mover on rails and we drew some of the best shooters in the country including the USAMU. Our next match is this coming Saturday, 1 July 2023, as I write this. We'd love to have you come shoot with us!!
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There's still much "cleanup" left to be done. They still list the Bianchi Aggregate as 196 shots among other goofs. 48X4=192 when I went to school back in the dark ages! LOL.
Start position is still listed as hands at shoulder height and they still require a reload after each 6-shot sequence.
In any case our facility won't be signing onto CMP's rules any time soon. Old habits never die and we've been at this game too long to have some Johnny-come-lately try to change the basics for their own naive wants and needs.
At least they corrected the dimensions on the plate racks and seem to be hearing from the older crowd on here and possibly other forums, I guess. Good on them for that!!
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I've waited for a while to weigh in on this stuff, but here goes. After over 20 years competing in NRA Action Pistol matches and running State and Regional matches, I know a bit about how things have been run. There are so many discrepancies in this list of new rules that it's hard to cover them all in a short post , but here's a try at that task. Let's start with the rules in order of presentation. New rules are in RED, and my responses are in black after the rules that I question.
2.2 Safe Pistol Condition
Pistols must be kept in a Safe Pistol Condition at all times except when they are
in use on a firing line and a Range Officer has instructed the competitor to LOAD
AND MAKE READY. Pistols in the Safe Pistol Condition are unloaded,
holstered, and comply with the following requirements, as appropriate:
a) Single-action revolvers must have the hammer fully down on an empty
chamber, unless equipped with a transfer bar.Does this mean that single action revolvers are allowed? There is a later stipulation that the Practical must be fired in double-action mode.
4.1.3 Safety Features
All factory standard safety features must be operable, except that M1911-
type pistol grip safeties may be disabled.This goes against the most recent NRA rules requiring that the grip safety be functional. Not a bad rule in my opinion, but different from the current one in effect.
4.2.3 Metallic Sight Pistol
The pistol must have a minimum caliber of 9x19 mm. The pistol may be a semi-
automatic pistol with a maximum barrel length of 6.25 inches, and a maximum
sight radius of 8.5 inches or a revolver with a maximum barrel length of 6.25
inches, as measured from the forward edge of the cylinder, and a maximum
sight radius of 9 inches, as measured from the back of the rear sight to the
apex of the front sight.Metallic Sight revolvers were allowed with the S&W 8 3/8" barrels in the past, so I guess they're outlawed here?
4.2.5 Production Pistol
A production pistol may be either a semi-automatic pistol or revolver that is or
has been a catalog item readily available to the public. Prototype and limited
production pistols are not permitted. Production pistols must comply with these
requirements:f) Barrel. Barrels on semi-automatic pistols may not exceed 5.35 inches in
length; barrels on revolvers may not exceed 6.0 inches, as measured from
the forward edge of the cylinder.There are catalog items that don't meet this rule either, especially revolvers.
4.3 Holsters
All pistols used in Action Pistol competitions must be carried in holsters that comply
with these rules. Competitors must begin each competition event with their pistol
in the holster in the Safe Pistol Condition and complete each event by returning
their pistol to the holster and a Safe Pistol Condition before they leave the firing
line.This precludes putting the pistol into a shooting bag to leave the line.
4.6.5 Ground Cloth
A competitor may use a ground cloth when firing in the prone position. Any
ground cloth must be made of a single layer of material and not have any
special padding.This takes away the Dillon shooting mats and others that shooters use differing from this rule that has been used at Bianchi for over 20 years.
4.7.2 Falling Plate Target
Each falling plate target shall be a round steel plate, eight (8)
inches in diameter. Plates should be cut from .375-inch (3/8
in.) steel. Plates must be mounted in groups of six (6), with
each plate one (1) foot from the adjacent target (center to
center), four (4) feet from ground level, as measured to the
bottom edge of the plates.This means a complete reconstruction of plate racks across the country as the ones in use now are one (1) foot apart from edge to edge. The new configuration puts them 4 inches apart instead of 12 inches.
6.1.3 Ready (Start) Position
Competitors must start every firing series from the ready position. A
competitor in the ready position is standing upright with both hands held at
shoulder height.This is later addressed in rule 6.2.2 d)
6.2.2 The Barricade Event
a) The Event. 48 shots, with four (4) stages, fired at 10, 15, 25, and 50
yards, with two (2) series of 6 shots in each stage.50 yard Barricades? That should be FUN!!
c) Barricades..... The barricade may be used for support.
A major change from NRA rules barring use of the barricade for support in Production and Metallic Sight categories.
d) Ready (Start) Position. The competitor stands in the firing area facing
the target with pistol holstered. After the command READY, the
competitor must place both hands on the barricade.Do fingertips count? NRA rules say "palms against the barricade".
f) Firing Procedure. After shooting 6 shots from one side of the
barricade, the competitor shall reload, holster the pistol, and resume the
ready position. The Range Officer will then give the start signal for the
series to be fired from the other side of the barricade. After that series,
the competitor will reload, holster his pistol, and move back for the next
stage where this procedure will start again.Mandatory reload after each 6-shots? Not necessary for double stack semi-autos, but required here!
6.2.3 The Falling Plate Event
e) Firing Procedure. After shooting the first series of 6 shots, the
competitor shall reload, holster the pistol, and resume the ready position
for the second series of 6 shots. The Range Officer will then give the
start signal for that series. After that series, the competitor will reload,
holster his pistol, and move back for the next stage where this
procedure will start again.Again, mandatory reloads after 6 shots fired.
TABLE 4 specifies that all firing is done from STANDING on plates.
No prone shooting allowed on Plates at any distance.
6.2.4 Moving Target Event
a) The Event. 48 shots, with four (4) stages at 10, 15, 20, and 25 yards,
with two (2) series of 6 shots in each stage.At 20 & 25 yards the shots are in 3 and 3 sequences, with 2 in each direction as it stands now.
g) Firing Procedure. After completing the right to left run, the competitor
must reload, holster their pistol, and assume the ready position for the
second left-right run. The Range Officer will release the target when the
competitor assumes the starting position. After that series, the competitor
will reload, holster his pistol, and move back for the next stage where this
procedure will start again.f) Event Time Limit. The competitor has 7 ½ minutes to complete all four
stages of the event, starting with the LOAD AND MAKE READY
command for the first stage. After completing each stage, the competitor
must reload, holster their pistol, and move back to the next firing point.(f and (g are reversed and again there is the mandatory reload after 6 shots fired.
8.2 Prohibited Acts
a) Smoking or Vaping. Smoking or vaping is not permitted on event
ranges or firing lines.No smoking on the ranges? You have to be kidding me!
Annex A – ACTION PISTOL SAFETY RULES AND PROCEDURES
• Prior to a start signal for a competitor to COMMENCE FIRE, the Range Officer
shall confirm that the competitor is ready by commanding
STANDBY...READY.Commands are reversed here, an obvious typographical error!
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They are the same....but different. The ones at the cup are older with thinner filling then the current production and the handles and straps have been cut off.
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After the first day of shooting, the USAMU is acquitting itself quite nicely. There are 11 shooters (out of 88 entries) who are "clean". Of those, 9 are Open, there is one ME and one PO. The ME and PO are both AMU shooters. Thursday looks like a rainout at midday, but it may clear enough to get some shooting done before it gets dark. Friday will tell the tale for a really diminished Bianchi Cup field of shooters. There are virtually NO Internationals shooting this year!
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Cardboard = 6ft to top, some Cofs say "approximately 6 feet to top of target" but most are set at 6 feet high to the top.
Plates = 4ft to bottom edge of plate.
Alan~^~
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There's no mention of how, or even if Distinguished Points can be earned in Production Optic Division in the latest rule book. Guess they missed that part when updating the latest rules, as they often do. Just as there is no qualifying score even listed as being available for Open Modified that they added a few years back and now ignore for Distinguished Points in that division altogether.
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Thirty days hath September, April, June and November
All the rest have thirty-one except February which stands alone
and
March which has 8,000!
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There may have been some "contamination" in the powder measure. I had that happen when a small piece of the styrofoam cap lining from the powder jug made its way into the measure and partially blocked the flow.
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Ed,
If you scroll through, you can see that the changes and new rules have a "bullet point" or a dot in front of the rule number. The first example saw just on a quick scan was 3.2.4 which adds Production Optic Firearm as a new category under Firearms, Equipment and Ammunition. Others include but aren't limited to: 3.8, Stocks; 4.3.2, Alternate Falling Plate Target Rimfire; 7.19, Barricade Event - Modified; 9.9, Weighing Triggers; 10.15, Specific Rules for Conduct of the Barricade Event - Modified; 10.33, Specific Rules for the Conduct of the Practical Short Course Event.....Well you get the idea.
The changes/additions are pretty easy to spot once you try it. The list grows after 10.33 to include several new courses that are fired as "Short Course" events.
Hope this helps.
Alan~^~
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Joe,
It would make no sense for you to order from Target Barn in Ohio when they only get them from National Target in Maryland, who ships them north to Ohio who in turn ships them back south to you. More shipping costs all around. That's why we went to the mfg source in MD to save the shipping costs.
Just my opinion, FWIW.
Alan~^~
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Give them a call tomorrow and you can get what you want to know over the phone. The lady who handles the calls is Terry, very friendly and easy to get along with. There is a 20% Club discount and prices come down the more you order, naturally. Our last order was for 1,200 so the price was $62.40/100 = $748.80. We're only a couple hundred miles away from them and shipping was $77.86 for the 12 boxes of 100 each. That worked out to $68.88/100, or ~$.69 per target with shipping included.
If you don't want/need that many you might consider getting together with another club in your area to boost the total number of targets ordered. That's what we did. Hope this helps.
Alan~^~
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Here's your best bet that cuts out the "middle-man".
https://www.nationaltarget.com/product_info.php/1cb-p-26
The one you pictured is only used at Bianchi Cup with the notches at the bottom. The others available have 2 holes on the bottom and another on the top for mounting purposes. The black 4" centers have been around for about 10 years or so now.
Alan~^~
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The NRA Action Pistol Regional Championship and the Keystone Cup State AP Championship matches will be held on 18 & 19 July 2020. Further info can be found at: http://www.chambersburgpistolandrifleclub.com/matches.html
Alan~^~
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Results are here:
Bedfordrrc.org
2019 Action Pistol Championships in upper left corner of the home page.
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Most are running 4.6-4.7gr WST with those bullet weights. Keep the ammo out of the sun 'cause it's inversely sensitive to heat.
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Man is the only animal that laughs and cries, for he is the only animal that knows the difference between what things are and what they might have been.
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3 weeks to entry deadline. It fills up fast after this! Don't miss out!
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I don't watch much TV because of having to deal with ads & commercials. I generally record the shows I want to watch regularly so I can skip the ads. Then comes along a program that I really want to see but it's in real time. Next comes the ads for future shows and the commercials! They "flash" images at the rate of 1-5 per second and many use a moving camera, further confusing this old man with the rapid image shifts that are supposed to be entertaining, I guess, but they are NOT. Then there's the guy who YELLS at you through the whole ad! Annoying!
I thought ads were supposed to make you want to go buy something or watch a particular program? Believe me with the latest technology being used in commercials and ads for TV shows, and the short attention span we are believed to possess, it doesn't work for me!
Maybe I'm just an old fart but my dollar spends just like anyone else's, and they constantly turn me away from their products, no matter the company, items or shows they are promoting!
Thanks for putting up with this old curmudgeon for a minute or two..............
Alan~^~
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The Overlord Memorial Cup Regional Championship and The Cardinal Cup VA State Championship matches will be held on September 28th & 29th. These events will be NRA Registered matches again so that National Records and Distinguished Points will be issued once again. Match programs and entry forms can be found at: http://www.bedfordrrc.org/matches
This Regional will be the third "leg" of the East Coast Triple Cup Challenge which includes Michigan and PA Regional matches from May and July of this year and the winners will be given the appropriate awards from their previous scores at those events combined with their scores at our Regional match.
There is an added awards category this year; an Iron Man competition, which involves shooting in all three centerfire categories for an aggregate score. Most, if not all, shooters get two visits to the prize tables by random drawing both days in addition to the cash awards for the top shooters in each category. Cash and merchandise is typically over $12,000 for the two days. Entries are limited to the first 70 guns each day due to time constraints on the mover.
The reason for the name on the Regional is that the match is being held at Bedford, VA, the location that lost more soldiers on a per-capita basis in the D-Day invasion at Normandy, France on June 6,1944 than any other locality in the whole US. The range that we use is the very site where the "Bedford Boys" practiced before shipping off to England to train before the invasion. The National D-Day Memorial is located here for that reason also and tours of that Memorial are encouraged during your visit!
The range will be open at no charge for practice for the 2 days prior to the matches with targets and center pasters for sale as needed by the competitors.
These are the largest AP events held east of the Mississippi River and we were the first range in the US to have computerized moving targets on rails. Come shoot with us and enjoy the scenery of the beautiful Blue Ridge Mountains as the Fall colors reach their peak.
"Shoot 'em in the middle!"
Alan~^~
Cardinal Cup Entry 2019.pdf Cardinal Cup Program 2019.pdf Overlord Memorial Cup Entry 2019.pdf Overlord Memorial Cup Program 2019.pdf
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What do you call an unemployed prostitute..........
Delayed
What do you call her when she gets rehired...
Relayed
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Russell,
I know why you like the idea!!! There's a great chance of you being the WINNER! No one person can compete for both Triple Cup Challenges due to the logistics of the scheduling. Berrien Springs and Bates City shoot on the same day, May 18th, so unless someone has a Lear Jet on standby, shoots Berrien Springs early and hops the jet to Kansas City to shoot in the afternoon they have to limit their competition to one of the 2 Challenge events.
You are one of the few who shoot at all 3 East Coast matches that I know of, so GO FOR IT big guy!!
Alan~^~
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"When I works, I works hard. When I sits, I sits loose. When I thinks, I falls asleep!"
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On 6/12/2018 at 5:35 PM, gm iprod said:
With all the s#!t that I am flinging at the "NRA" over this cock up, it is important that we stand up to those cocks and keep shooting AP. The worst thing they want is for us to make the rest of AP, (Regionals, State Champs) and all the extra shoots that are hosted (Cameron Cup comes to mind) run by individual clubs with no help from bulls#!t Castle in Virginia a screaming success, this will show that they are irrelevant to us as a shooting sport organisation. These matches that have seen increasing numbers when all around us there is chaos.
The NRA needs to stick to its knitting and what it is best at, keep our rights secure. Let us run the matches.
I've waited this long to respond so I could calm down from the news from Bianchi this year. Not sorry I missed it by all indications and anecdotal evidence. Next year will be interesting on the numbers attending......or not.
In Virginia this year, we're running our annual events without NRA sanction to see how things turn out. So far, we've lost a couple of shooters over this strategy who are only interested in National Records and Distinguished Points that the NRA doesn't recognize it seems. We have also gained a couple more shooters who are new here, so it's a "break-even" situation at this point and we're over 1/2 full with 3 weeks to go to deadline for entries.
We were the first in the US to have a mover on rails, home-built at that, thanks to our friends in NZ who sent blueprints. Ours is the 3rd largest AP match in the country so far, behind Bianchi and Crawfish for numbers.
Pennsylvania held their annual Regional & State Championship AP matches in July and participation was down over 30% for both days from last year. We'll see how this ends up, but at this time, I think that NRA sanction is not necessary to have successful AP events. We've sent many thousands for dollars to them in the last few years and there has been no update on National Records or Distinguished Points since 2015 with a few exceptions.
After our 2016 Regional & State Championships we submitted 30 new NRs and one tie. None have been acknowledged or posted on the web site, so in 2017 we didn't submit either of those since there were no accurate records to use for comparison As mentioned before, the NRA is only interested in the MONEY with no thought to the fulfillment of their obligation to keep current records and points listings for the shooters involved.
If I pay someone to perform a task for me and they quit, I stop paying them! So it is with NRA and the only AP range in Virginia! We have donations of over $7,000 in merchandise so far and plan to spend another $2,000 for the prize tables since we can spend the NRA money on the shooters. Everyone gets at least 2 trips to the prize tables at our matches so far.
There are large AP events held every year at Michigan, Missouri, Louisiana, Virginia, Wyoming and Pennsylvania along with many monthly matches that aren't listed with NRA bringing shooters from all over the country and Canada. So far, we're the only event of any size to pull out of NRA sanctioning as an experiment on the viability of holding these matches on our own. I even got an email from one of the top shooters in the country offering what I consider a bribe offering to pay the NRA fees for all our shooters if we'd get the events sanctioned! I respectfully declined so they declined to shoot here!
As I understand it, the Bianchi/NRA contract with GV has expired, so maybe there is hope that the sport can continue without the NRA being involved.
Bianchi Matches - how to find
in NRA - Bianchi Cup
Posted
Thanks for the reply, Bill. Our web site is: www.bedfordrrc.org and the shooting schedule is on there updated monthly. Yes we do allow 22 rimfire. If it's in the NRA AP rule book, we shoot it.