Jeff226
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Posts posted by Jeff226
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18 minutes ago, motosapiens said:
In singlestack it's a much more interesting discussion, with real trade-offs and decisions, instead of just the butthurt of 3 gun pansies that can't shoot accurately AND can't handle major recoil. In uspsa you have to choose one; hose and have fewer rounds, or be a bit more precise and have more rounds. It is what makes uspsa shooters more sophisticated and attractive and gets us all the hot chicks.
You and the statistics guy do a fine job of dragging the sophistication level down to Glocktalk quality.
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29 minutes ago, teros135 said:
No, it isn't. It's "single-subject" research with real data, which is far better than unsupported assertions and straw-man arguments.
So some random dudes story about his local match is a better sample than the published results of the whole year's nationals where people who are actually serious about winning (they don't bring borrowed broken guns) not so surprisingly shoot limited minor in very small numbers and those that do rarely finish in the top 60 because of a scoring advantage for major caliber left over from the 80s??
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2 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:
I did a test this weekend that plays right along this "what IS competitive" conversation.
I shot Production (I'm a decent B production shooter 4th B at A1) with a borrowed Ruger P89 I had never touched before the match, I used a Serpa holster (with the lock disabled) on a regular leather belt and some Uncle Mikes double mag pouches. I wanted to see how shooting basically the crappiest gun I could borrow with no practice on it at all would affect my scores. in the end it turned out I had handicapped myself more than I thought when the Ruger had a serious hammer follow problem so it went randomly form SA to DA throughout the stages. how did this joke end? Shooting a malfunctioning gun with horrible ergonomics and a stupid sliding mag release that I never did get to go smoothly, left me 4th in production and first B behind 2 Ms and an A, I am sure I would have done better with my regular gear, heck I would have done better if I spent 20 min dryfiring the gun I shot, but probably not enough to win.
Moral of the story, Major, Minor, Good Gun, Bad Gun (that runs), if you think you are not winning because of your gear you are most likely wrong.
The bigger moral is that you probably shouldn't draw morals from the personal experience of one B shooter at a local match with such thin competition that he can finish 4th in production with a broken borrowed gun.
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11 minutes ago, GorillaTactical said:
Let's say the winner at nationals shot minor...would that drop him to 61st? No...it might have moved him to like 5th. That's still mighty competitive...it's just not seizing every single advantage.
My point is, the average shooter at your local match does not feel an effect...we talk about major like if you aren't shooting major, you might as well have a nerf gun...it's just not true. Further, the best shooters at your local match would still be at the top of the heap if they were shooting minor.
In your opinion that is "mighty competitive"...to me it looks like the obvious difference between winning or not. The top 60 drop far fewer shots than the average local guy...so yes, while the local guy isn't shooting for prizes...his score will obviously be affected more than someone who can expect almost all As.
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14 minutes ago, GorillaTactical said:
Savage
In all seriousness, the percent you move from one scoring to another is marginal at best. I too have seen only a percent shift of 1-5% at best if I calculate it out over recent matches. Now, 5% at a major match is a lot...but to suggest that this is some barrier to entry into the sport...or that good shooters cant come over and compete because of it is just hilarious.
Not breaking top 60 at nationals is a strong indication that minor isn't competitive for good shooters.
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Just now, DukeEB said:
So, you don't have a quote or reference for it? Got it.
You disagree with it, use your impressive intelligence and find something that disproves my claim. I am not running history classes in the Brian Enos forum.
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2 minutes ago, DukeEB said:
educate me then.
"google"
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Just now, N3WWN said:
Sorry, try again... most new shooters finish near the bottom, regardless of what division, gun or cartridge they ran.
If the only reason you give them for coming in [nearly] last is that they're shooting minor and everyone else in the division is shooting major, they're going to be sadly disappointed the next match when they bring their new gear and still finish near the bottom.
Because nobody comes to USPSA from IDPA or 3 gun or action pistol or some other shooting discipline? They all just show up out of nowhere with no experience?
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1 minute ago, DukeEB said:
Did they really say this? I'm not buying it.
I usually google stuff before I announce my lack of education on a topic.
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2 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:
Not really the same, we already have a place for you horse and buggy. It's called revolver, want to run top fuel try open. Minor is competitive in SS depending on the match. Minor dominates Revolver division. Production and CO and PCC are minor scoring only.
If it makes you feel better I will acknowledge that Major has a scoring advantage. 1 point per Charlie. And yes there are a lot of people attached to there 40's. I think you keep missing people point out that this is one to the most popular divisions in the sport. If you change the rules you risk pissing off a significant portion of our population. That doesn't make any sense at all. And your reason, we MIGHT make the sport more appealing to people who shoot 3 gun.
But, maybe you're right and L-Minor will be YUGE. I just checked the results from Area 5 and 20 people shot minor. Now some of them may have shot minor by accident, but with 20 shooters this could be as big of a division as revolver, maybe even L-10.
Very much the same, there will always be short sighted people.
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Just now, motosapiens said:
EVERYONE serious in limited shoots .40, so you can't 'rank up' by shooting a different caliber.
do you even talk to people at matches?
I have lost track of how many production or new shooters try limited, finish near the bottom, we explain the major scoring advanatge, and they come back with a 40 and better results.
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1 minute ago, SCTaylor said:
Whatever bro. You've got a decision made and aint changing. Honestly, I think you just like the attention.
Pot meet kettle?
I am simply discussing the obvious scoring advantage that all of us without our heads inserted up our behinds acknowledge. I understand there are lots of people attached to their 40s or having a class where they can rank up simply by shooting a different caliber and if that makes you feel better about yourself more power to you.
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2 minutes ago, SCTaylor said:
That your battle cry of "change it and they will come" or "they're missing out a a YUUUUUGE market segment", is bull.
Maybe as it applies to those divisions. There are exponentially more people that have +10 capacity 9mms than PCCs or carry guns with optics.
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9 minutes ago, motosapiens said:
i think it's the quarterly 'noob wants to rewrite the rules to fit his particular gear/preferences' discussion. Didn't seem like it had already been 3 months since the last one.
I thought you were saying everyone was happy as is??
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57 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:
Personally as a USPSA shooter, when I go shoot a different sport (like IDPA) I don't ask them to create a new division just for me. I go shoot ESP with a 40 and my Major uspsa loads. I don't need special treatment for the match to be fair.
The other question that I've seen come up here and there is "do we really need more intrest/participation?" Clubs in this area fill up and have waiting lists. One club north of me shoots two day club matches. I don't know that we have a participation problem at this time, and changing one of the most popular divisions seems like a silly way to "grow" the sport.
At one time, a majority of people said why do we need automobiles when we already have all of these horses and buggies.
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1 minute ago, SCTaylor said:
So tell me, how many new people are shooting USPSA due to Carry Optics or PCC? Same line of thought as above. I can say there have been two (2) new shooters at my local club match, a match that averages 70 shooters per month.
What does that have to do with allowing limited minor shooters, who already outnumber both of those divisions by far, have a competitive division?
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26 minutes ago, tanks said:
Except, no one is prohibiting any Limited shooter from shooting major. 9mm has an advantage over .40 in magazine capacity and recoil, but scores less out of the A zone. So, pick your strength (or weakness), and shoot the caliber you prefer.
This is assuming the major scoring advantage can be overcome with speed which we all know isn't the case.
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1 minute ago, motosapiens said:
Not sure I get this. Everyone serious has a dedicated competition gun. What difference does it make what caliber it is, or whether that caliber is popular among LEO's, neckbeards, or the general public?
If USPSA wants to grow/maintain the sport, they need to keep classes that accomodate the market...the guns that are popular and in use. At some point, people who shoot multiple disciplines aren't going to buy a second dedicated competition 40 caliber pistol just to shoot limited major. As 40 dies, so will the interest in participating in a division that caters to 40.
The other guy was telling me to buy a 40 if I wanted to be competitive. I already have multiple 40s and there are those of us who can afford to jump on whatever bandwagon comes up...but that doesn't change the fact that the USPSA could be missing the boat and/or leaving a huge market untapped because of this confusing preference for 40 caliber.
When all you have to do is change a few settings in a computer to do a legitimate real time market analysis and the upside is more interest/participation in your sport with no downside...it is a no brainer.
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4 minutes ago, motosapiens said:
My recommendation is become a social justice warrior, form an organization called '9mm bullets matter', and fight for the equality and free stuff you deserve!
Well, I don't spend a lot of time arguing with comics and those who demand safe spaces for 40 caliber so I'll just say it has been fun!!
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6 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:
Just because Major gets a scoring advantage doesn't mean it isn't fair. If you're serious about doing well in Limited then sell your 9 and get a 40. If you're serious about shooting 3 gun or whatever and want to improve with your 9 while getting trigger time at a USPSA match that's great. Don't go to a USPSA match and demand a new division that caters to you.
An obvious advantage would be the definition of unfair wouldn't it?
I already have 40s for limited...my personal ability to buy all of the gear I want doesn't affect the obvious problem USPSA is creating for participation and competition in the limited class.
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2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:
lol, you are probably right. that's why the majority of posts in this thread agree with you......n't.
Sample size
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1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said:
You're exactly right, it's about participation and fair competition. Limited is one of the most popular divisions. So it would be really dumb for us to make such a drastic change to limited. And there is nothing unfair about Major, everyone can take advantage of it if the choose to.
So if the division is popular, and fair why do we need to add another division?
The division is popular because you can mod your gun and shoot full capacity magazines. It is unfair because all of us who aren't playing dumb know that there is a scoring advantage for major.
I don't see the benefit in playing dumb when it comes to USPSA rules.
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Just now, motosapiens said:
My agency still carries 40, as do most other local agencies. If you actually knew the market you would not be the only one who thinks limited needs fixing. Everyone else is happy.
If you are right, carry optics will be the biggest division in a year or so......
The switch back to 9mm in law enforcement is well under way. There will be a few holdouts like those that still issue 45 but the fact is that the "market" is far bigger than just LE agencies and it is obvious that you are equally ill equipped to speak about the market or for "everyone else" in USPSA.
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1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:
So the problem is people want to be competitive, and don't have the right gear so we should make a new division just for them so they can feel like winners too? If we keep doing that, where does it end? How many divisions is to many? I think we currently have 8 divisions, you'd make it 9. And don't forget we have classes in each of those divisions, so at any match you could have up to 54 shooters claim to have finished 1st. Do we just keep adding winners until you're one too??
And then once we split the divisions, we'll just let the best division survive. Good plan, but when was the last time we killed a division? If we were going to only let the best division survive we'd only have Open, Limited, Production, and now probably PCC. The rest wouldn't survive.
At this point, when high capacity 9mms dominate the gun market and they are predominantly used in other shooting events (3 gun, steel, IDPA), it doesn't make sense to build in a scoring disadvantage to a dying caliber in the USPSAs largest division. This is called knowing the market and has nothing to do with giving everyone a trophy.
In the end, it needs to be about participation and fair competition, not about keeping 40 S&W on life support as long as possible.
Is major falling out of favor in Limited
in USPSA/IPSC Shooting
Posted
I can't tell whether you are trying to perfect the forum troll routine or just have a hard time reading but you come off like all of the anti-trumper sjws who will twist and turn evey word just to create a controversy. If you think I am defending 3 gun, can't shoot 40, or 95% of the other weird accusations you have made then I'd have to assume you have a terrible reading comprehension problem. I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt but you aren't giving me much to work with. Maybe lay off the brew a few days