superdude
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Posts posted by superdude
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wow!! that seems nearly impossible, from a practical point of view. shouldn't the gas pressure push out any "obstruction"? assuming there is enough gas pressure in the first place.
i can't tell from the photo, but was the base of the jacket intact? i'm assuming it was and what we're seeing is just the copper cup that the lead core was molded into.
if i had to guess i would have thought that if it was a light load that the whole bullet would stick. it's just so hard to imagine that the lead core would continue moving forward is the copper jacket stopped. its hard to imagine the the bullet had enough inertia after moving such a small distance to allow the lead core to separate and continue onward (it being the heavier element) when the jacket can't get pushed through the bore.
but the world is full of amazing stuff!
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if you're getting new brass and the cost is the same, i would suggest the +P variety. its stronger and can be used for heavier loads if you want to try some in the future. though this might be less of an issue if you have a ramped barrel, and the last Kimber i saw had that, so it might not matter. but i always opt for the stronger stuff anyway.
the .355 jacketed bullets will be perfect. As Big Dave and Clyde noted, more variety - which translates into a better choice of accurate bullets. if you're considering heavier bullets - i like them for light recoiling loads - the Remington 147 FMJ Match bullet has been consistently accurate in my Supers. They can be found at Midway USA (www.midwayusa.com).
i've found that for cast lead bullets, the 147 grain variety tend to shoot a little straighter than the 125s, but that might just be me/my gun. i'm sure that you already know that most cast bullets will be .356 diameter.
i've not used the powders you listed. if you decide to switch powders Winchester 231 is hard to beat. I also use Winchester Super Target, and Vit N320 for light loads. but i still recommend the 231. it tends to be consistently accurate in my 38 Super pistols.
The Super is a great cartridge with considerable flexibility. i'm sure you'll enjoy it.
additional material on the 38 Super cartridge can be found at:
www.38super.net
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Skywalker, where do you get these Platinum plated bullets?
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there is some risk of pierced primers with your Major pf load - depends on the load. the primer material, when blown out, often goes back into the firing pin hole. this can cause misfires on subsequent rounds. the primer material might go elsewhere providing some risk to the shooter and bystanders. a long firing pin can reduce the probability of a completely blown (pierced) primer, but you're better of just using rifle primers for Major pf in the Super. again, it depends on your specific load, gun, etc.
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Hi Ed,
Glad that solved the problem. you're so right about the internet and forums. great resources!
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i've been recently trying the Winchester Ranger T series and Federal HST rounds. both have impressive expansion in water jugs. i'm leaning toward the Winchester T series because of the barbs on the end of the copper jacket. they would cause more damage than a bullet without them, like the HST. but one should not feel disadvantaged with the Federal, and since i haven't found a reliable source of the Winchester Ranger T for the 40, I use the Federal HST for it. both have run reliably in my guns - Colt Officers 45, Para P16-40, CZ SP-01, Walther P99. I've not clocked all of them, but here is the data for what i have.
45 ACP
Winchester Ranger T 230gr +P, 931 fps 5 inch gun, 863 fps 3.5 inch Officers Ed Brown barrel.
9MM Luger
Winchester Ranger T 127gr +P+, 1205 fps SP-01 4.5 inch barrel.
Federal HST 124gr +P, 1208 FPS Walther P99 4 inch barrel.
380 ACP
Winchester Ranger T 95gr, 856 fps Kel-Tec P3AT.
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Wayne,
First, thanks for chronoing and posting your data. We will find it useful in our load development.
I am surprised by the decreased average velocity in your first data with the 124 gr Gold Dot amid increasing charge weights of 4756 powder. Due to increased temperature of ammo left in the sun? Anyone with experience with this powder care to comment on this?
what bullet weight(s) are you planning to use if you standardize your Major PF load?
That 170 FMJ load at 1200+ fps looks like a good "Woods" load for the 38 Super. it certainly makes Major!
Montana Gold still has reasonable prices for their bullets.
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people used to be so serious. now look at them.
don't stop! these are good giggles!!
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correct. order the 9mm magazine, Para catalog number PNM9 (or at Brownells (Brownells.com) catalog number 199-000-348 - where i bought mine, though the new style came with a P18-9 i bought about a year ago).
Pictures of Para's old and new magazine design are here: http://www.38super.net/Pages/Para%20Magazines.html
Para slightly changed the magazine design for the current production 9mm magazines that allows it to form a single column of rounds lower in the magazine. they might have made the change to the current 38 Super magazines as well, but i have not seen those so i cannot comment on them one way or the other. the photo at CDNN shows the older style magazine. whether that represents what they have or not i don't know since the new 38 Super mags might be like the new 9mm mags, and maybe they just haven't updated their photos. in fact, Para still shows they old style mags for the 9mm P-18 on their website (http://www.paraproshop.com/product_989.htm). if you are concerned, you could buy from Brownells, and in any event make sure that you're getting the new design.
the new design. there is a groove indentation in the side of the magazine that forces the cartridges into a single column as it nears the top. the new design extends the groove lower into the magazine. this extended groove effectively eliminates the gap between the top round and the underlying round. as background information, the angle of the top round and underlying rounds can change as more rounds are added to the magazine. this change of angle is unavoidable in 1911 single stack mags (http://www.38super.net/Pages/Overall%20Length.html) but can be reduced/eliminated in some double stack magazines. this change of angle produces a gap between the top round and underlying round that contributes to the nosedive effect since it allows free space for the nose of the top round to easily change its angle when moving forward.
i have the older 38 Super mags, and they work fine with rimless super comp brass. Regardless, the semi-rimmed cases can be a bit of a problem. the small semi-rim of the standard 38 Super case can get positioned in the extractor groove of the underlying round. this produces some additional drag when the round starts to get pushed forward during cycling which can initiate the nosedive.
i see that you have a couple of options.
#1. change to rimless brass. this ought to solve the feeding issue even with your current magazines. my para runs fine even with a bit of nosedive gap from the old magazines. i can't guarantee that yours will - just covering my behind!
#2. change magazines. the new para mags eliminates the nosedive gap and keeps the rounds at the same angle no matter how many rounds are in it (i've measured the angle with up to 20 rounds in them - the angle is the same).
#3. change brass and mags. expensive!!
yes, the $49.00 is awful stiff for new mags and i don't like it either. but i replaced most of my old mags with the new mags in part because i sometimes shoot 9mm in the Para (and the nosedive is worse with a tapered case like the 9mm Luger) and partly because i want the most reliable setup i can have for competition and self defense (i'm building a high cap Para 38 Super/9X23 on an aluminum frame).
38 super comp brass is expensive too and replacing it would be painful as well.
edited to add post to pictures.
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i would suggest trying one of the complete para mags and not buying a bunch of anything. remember, get their new 9mm mag as its body is modified to specifically form a single column lower in the mag. and yes, the 9mm mag will hold 38 Super cartridges.
i haven't seen the MecGars so i don't know their configuration.
i'm not clear on what has to be modified on the STI brands.
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Para's current production 9mm mag is an improved version of their 38 super mags. the new 9mm mags accomplish what you described with your big stick, they form a single column lower in the mag.
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i guess it's time for another opinion.
the problem could be brass related. yes, the little rim on the 38 Super brass can exacerbate nosedive feeding issues from double column (and possible even single column) magazines. i've had that same experience with my para. changing to rimless supercomp brass solves the problem as there is less drag because of the rim.
there's nothing wrong with Paras or their magazines. sorry S_I users, S_Is are not inherently better designed in my experience. check all the links on this website (and others) complaining of feeding problems with S_Is and the necessity of tuned mags. i've got many factory para mags of different generations and they are fine.
Para's newer 9mm magazines have an improved feature that reduces nosedive problems. I vote for rimless cases for double stack guns since they are inherently more reliable in double stack magazines. the semi-rimmed brass issue can be a real headache with brand new cases. after they've been fired, tumbled and reloaded the problem diminishes because the sharp edges get rounded off.
a new extractor may not be necessary at all. several of my 38s function perfectly with either brass. extractor tuning might be necessary. replacement is a last resort unless you want separate extractors - that's fine too.
granted there are many causes to feeding issues and the responders have pointed to some. magazine springs can be an issue, and frankly its a bit hard to diagnose feeding problems over the internet.
we've all had different experiences. why something works for one shooter and not another is what keeps this forum alive and well. the brass might be the problem. the spring might be the problem. etc, etc.
good luck
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a partial list that might help can be found at:
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i've fit both Kart designs. i really like the EZ fit Kart barrels. accuracy is that same as the regular ones (superb!, my preferred manufacturer for 45 ACP). their EZ fit was a smart idea and makes much simpler what can be a tricky task.
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38superman is right. i've used 310 in the super and it is waaaaay too fast. even for minor loads i was pushing the limit on pressure. i had to switch to rifle primers. this is a bad sign. save it for your 45, its a great powder for that.
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some cartridges have defined +P pressure standards. as per the SAAMI booklet:
9mm Luger 35,000 psi
9mm Luger +P 38,500 psi
38 Special 17,000 psi
38 Special +P 18,500 psi
45 ACP 21,000 psi
45 ACP +P 23,000 psi
published velocities suggest significant velocity increases in some (probably not all) +P loadings.
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as Joe4d noted, every barrel is different. there is no way to predict which direction velocity might change. for example, my BarSto 38 super barrel is significantly slower than my Colt barrel. my Ed Brown 45 barrel is slower than my Kart barrel.
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just a minor point. i've had feeding trouble with NEW unfired 38 super brass in a double stack. after the brass has been fired, and more importantly, tumbled, it feeds better. presumably the tumbling rounds off sharp edges that might be the problem. i've switched to the rimless Super Comp and have had no feeding issues since then.
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in addition to using 3N38, i've had good luck with Ramshot Silhouette. it is the old Winchester Action Pistol. it costs much less than the Vit powders, and you'll use less of it than 3N38, hence a considerable savings in cash.
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i have some older para 38 super magazines and the newer para 9mm magazines. there is a slight difference in their design, such that using 9mm ammo in the old 38 super magazines might allow a bit of a gap between the top round and the underlying round (after you put several rounds in the magazine). this might result in some nosedive feeding issues. the newer 9mm para mag design appears to completely eliminate the gap and nosedive issue in my experience. to test what your magazines are, load them with some 9mm rounds and see if the gap appears that might produce a nosedive issue. if they are of the old 38 super design, using round nose bullets for 9mm ammo will reduce feeding problems compared to flat nose bullets. you can also buy the 9mm mags from para or brownells.
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UW Mitch has a good point. i don't know if it will make a difference in your instance or not, but the cartridge will still need to fit in the magazine. this might be an issue, and more so with flat nose bullets.
for an explanation as to why, see:
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powder: Winchester Action Pistol (WAP) is a great powder for the 9X23 and the Super for standard and high performance loads. However, Winchester doesn't market it anymore. But Ramshot does sell WAP under a new name, Silhouette. its the same powder, but feel free to confirm that with Ramshot yourself. The old Winchester manual showed high performance loads for the 9X23 using WAP (Silhouette), that is a 125 grain bullet over 1400fps. and i think folks on this forum have posted load data for making major in the 38 Super with Silhouette. although case capacity might differ slightly between the two cases, the loads with Silhouette will be about the same for any given velocity, or at least they are in my limited experience.
for lighter loads Winchester 231 is hard to beat.
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a bronze brush and some elbow grease. i think i used WD40, but persistence was the main ingredient.
a note about ammunition: some of Remington's 22lr ammo (i don't recall the specific brand name, but it was the really cheap stuff) leaded up barrel terribly. it was lead color (not copper plated - that might be fine) and appeared to have a waxy coating. it was awful and i ended up giving it away with a note warning about heaving leading. 10 rounds was enough to foul the bore.
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flat nose bullets, like hollow points, often cannot be loaded to the same length as round nose bullets, but there is some variation on this. for example, flat nose bullets loaded to the maximum overall length for a given semi-auto cartridge might run into issues with fitting in the magazine. some information on this issue is explained at the website below.
Jacket separation
in 9mm/38 Caliber
Posted
ah, that makes sense. can attribute it to a weak/thin/fragile base of the copper cup.