firewood
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Posts posted by firewood
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On 5/14/2018 at 9:47 PM, xtian999 said:
As long as you brought it up, how much initial investment? I shoot 9mm, 45 acp, 223, 300 blk, and 308 mostly, with a little 30-06. Also some 12 ga and lots of 22lr.
If you are interested in learning to handload ammo and purchase the tackle to get started may I suggest that take a long hard look at you actual ammo needs and then make a decision?
So, for example, you state that you shoot 2 handgun calibers and 4 rifle calibers. That is a total of 6 calibers. And to complicate matters there is a mix of rifle and pistol. So, in my not so very humble opinion, make a realistic survey of the actual number of rounds you shoot in each caliber per month. Forget for now 30-06 because by your own admission you do little there.
So say you shoot 100 rounds/ month of .223 and 300 BLK and 500 rounds of 9mm and 400 rounds 45 ACP then concentrate on either 9mm or 45 and gear up for handgun reloading. If the opposite is true gear up for rifle reloading. The reason for this is with rifle you can use a single stage press but will need case prep tools, for handgun the only case prep is case cleaning which you will also need for rifle. For handgun a progressive press is nice to have.
It will take some time before you know exactly what you are doing so I think it wise to narrow down the calibers and put off buying things like 5 or 6 sets of dies from the get-go and put that money into good tools that will stay with you for the duration. You will also need a suitable place to make your ammos and store your stuff. Many start by mounting their press to an existing work bench, this is what I did, but didn't take long before things changed as this was for me not conducive to an enjoyable handloading experience.
Having said all of this the needs of a competitive shooter are not needs of a casual plinker. Without knowing you or your wants/needs/desires it is difficult to put a price tag on starting handloading but thinking in terms of $800.00-$1,000.00 start-up cost is in my opinion prudent. It is possible to do it on a very limited budget of course and some do and do well but many handloaders end up with the hardware you could buy with my budget so why not cut to the chase? $1,000.00 may seem like a lot of money to spend here and it is but for all we know you step up to the firing line with a $2,500.00 gun supported with $600.00 belt/holster all stored in a $200.00 range bag. If you shoot a 400 round match with 9mm you might need $100.00 for ammo plus the entry fee, food and travel. Firearms hobbies are not inexpensive!
You might ask around your fellow shooters or competitors and see if maybe there would be someone willing to show you how they handload and get a first hand look at things.
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My first year all I had was a 6 shot revo. That was what I had and so that was what I shot, there was no discussion or debate.
Second year I added an 8 shot. For me it did more than just give me 2 extra rounds before reloads. That year I tried to convince myself that the 6 shot forced me to be more careful of where I placed my shots, making me a better shooter. Ha Ha! A few weeks ago I shot (5 stage static outlaw steel challenge style match) on the same squad with a guy that used a 625. This shooter had one (1) makeup shot the entire match while I had about 15. Didn't help him in the standing though as there was over a minute between our scores. True I need to reduce my number of makeups but I will take my score over his any day.
Truth is for me I'm a better shooter now but not because I have extra ammos, but rather because I have put a little more effort into my marksmanship. I think though that you have to convince yourself that the path your on is the correct for you. At the same time I was telling myself that I was more shot conscience with a 6 shot I was also trying to convince myself that id*a was good for development of defensive carry skills. What was I thinking?
I now believe that it all comes down to the personal level of commitment and enjoyment. Going from a 6 shot L frame to an 8 shot N frame in a competition environment is somewhat of a dollar and cents factor. I know a fellow revo shooter that is beginning the 3rd year of shooting static steel and is no better today than the first match based on scores. That person started same as me, a 6 shot then on to an 8 shot. This individual has the gear so it's not the tackle. I have concluded that some individuals apparently don't seem to mind the lack of advancement and are there strictly for the joy of shooting. Not my way of doing things but we are all different.
Since getting an 8 shot I hardly ever shoot my 6 shot but still would not want to get rid if it and all of the associated Bric-à-brac.
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Main thing is to make sure you really understand how to operate the gun. That and a good understanding of the rules.
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Steel Challenge is a hoot, welcome Robert!
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36 minutes ago, Dr. Phil said:
I did, thanks. Smallish match. Rain and cold.
How did your ammo-burning experience go?
I shot ISR and OSR, long day. I'm pleased with my OSR score (147) all 8 stages SCSA as you know. My previous best was 160. Still a long way to go before guys like you start asking me how I do it but gotta start from where you are. Got drenched towards the end and stayed to help clean up so a little bit miserable but my performance was just good enough to give me that little boost to keep at it.
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9 hours ago, Dr. Phil said:
As I say, I use and like my progressives. Came home from a match Saturday, shot yesterday and had no live rounds left! Went downstairs and in a half hr I had enough to shoot today. Nice. The turret is mostly for match ammo and small runs like 44 mag, 357 mag, test loads for the revo, etc. I like the versatility of having both.
Good luck with your search! And welcome to the exciting world of the progressive press.
PS
You might want to go right to that Mark 7 press. 3500 rounds/hr! Just kidding, but, man what a machine!!
Not to change the subject Dr. Phil but hope you did well Saturday!
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I'm not sure this is going to be helpful. I'm 60 years old and have been wearing glasses since 8th grade. Normally I wear traditional bi-focals with lines but those truly suck for shooting.
I have a pair of progressive lens glasses, they are basically tri-focals with no lines. Got these at the Walmart vision center of about $100.00 bucks. Been using them for a few years now and they are ok. For the last 2 years I have been using a dot sight but since January have been also shooting iron sight. Outdoors fine but Indoors is a fiasco, I'm not sure it's the glasses or eye conditions or the lighting. Also I use FA front sights and red is the color that works best for me. I'm going to try red indoors prolly this week and see if it helps.
When I'm going shooting I put the progressives on about an hour before I start. It takes a while for my eyes to get used to them. Readers really blur the target so I don't personally care for them.
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9 minutes ago, DRock said:
firewood, I agree that there are lots of Lee people over there, and some of the newer posts in the tech section indicate some disappointment.
I honestly wasn't sure of what need this press was supposed to fill, and it seems that some of the breakage I read about in the tech section indicates there is a lot of beta testing going on by the early buyers. I said early on that I'd let everyone else do the beta testing. At this point I wouldn't recommend the press.
Most of my shooting needs are filled by the Classic Turret but every spring when I start getting ready for competition season I start looking Blue or the other Red. Lately I'm thinking LNL but I would have to buy it in the winter to get used to it.
I appreciate hearing your views on the press. For me a LCT is a good solid item (especially with a set up from Kempf) as long as you don't shoot more than about 600 a week and are retired. The reason I'm looking elsewhere is because I like using and learning about different tools, don't really need the production.
Dave
600 rounds per week is 30,000 per year. That individual should have a progressive with case and bullet feeders, retired or not.
But I think you meant to say 600 rounds per month. I really don't know why anyone would go to the tortured lengths some do to defend the honor of the LCT and their decision to use one, especially when they use that much ammo. I know that there is a cost factor but at that rate of ammo consumption then they are spending money other places firearms related and it's a one time expense. But not my problem.
I find myself this season shooting more than usual. In April I shot 1400 rounds and I project May will require 1800 rounds 9mm. While I'm not trying to get anyone to buy anything, I have very few issues with my LNL and thinking about getting a case feeder for it. Like you I like to use and learn about different tools and I appreciate quality. The item under consideration just looks slapped together willy-nilly. Many might find it a quaint feature, not me.
One of the things that LCT users like to brag about is the low cost of collecting additional turret heads to speed caliber changes. That and the breach lock concept. Hornady has the basic same thing (LNL bushings) but I have split rings on all of my dies anyway so removing and replacing dies is easy regardless. Still, if you know what you are doing and have a good solid understanding of how to adjust dies then even without split rings or bushings it isn't that big of a deal to replace dies on any press.
One other thing that the highroad posters gloss over is the size and placement of the ram on the new lee progressive. It is apparently a small diameter and located under station #1. I don' t know for sure but I would say that this is a design compromise to control costs. Might not have any effect on small pistol calibers but I would like more information on how this might effect large cases as I think it could cause the shell plate to tilt. But maybe not an issue.
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On 5/9/2018 at 10:26 AM, DRock said:
There are a couple of threads going on The Highroad. One for un-boxing and one for tech. Reviews seem generally favorable with a few tech issues regarding the primer feed. Same type of primer feed as the Classic Turret and same learning curve with a few adjustments due to a slightly different primer arm.
Dave
Dave I'm a highroad regular and there are a bunch of positive posts there on this press by posters that don't own or use the press yet. The general overall attitude there is buy Lee and your a genius, buy Dillon or Hornady and you are a show off that lacks handloader skills. I'm actually surprised that some of the fans of lee are posting their negative feelings (those that actually have the press) and it is a further surprise that given all of the build up and anticipation the screen has gone relatively dark since the press started shipping.
It is sort of funny that this press is supposed to correct weaknesses in the pro 1000 by adding an extra station and fixing primer issues. It then accomplished the primer issue fix by incorporating a system that is hands-on. Those that already have the primer system because they are a lee turret press user are disappointed when they discover that the two systems are not interchangeable. The 4th station doesn't gain you anything if you like to seat and crimp on different stations and want to use an existing non-lee powder measure. Instead you have to buy their plastic powder measure and attach it a lee case mouth expansion die, which if you don' t already have one adds about $15.00 to the cost I mentioned above. Or size and prime off press.
The big question never asked or rationally discussed is who is the intended market for this item? An argument could be made that it isn't the high volume competitive handgun shooter because that person wants a robust, user friendly press, not one that has a bunch of plastic add-ons. But I'm sure there will be a ton of users that will declare the thing to be the best invention since the toaster oven met pop tarts. Again what ever makes the user happy.
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Very good information. This is probably my worse stage as far as time is concerned and as such improving here will give me the biggest boost.
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This weekend I made big progress towards my goal to make A in SCSA OSR 2018
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Personally I would try a few samples of what ever moon clip you decide on before buying a whole bunch. I keep repeating myself sorry but I have (2) 929s. One likes .035 moons, the other .040
.040 are very tight in the one I use .035 in. I get light strikes if I use .035 in the one that likes .040
Pain in the * but not as bad as light strikes.
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Old thread.
I noticed in the new hot off the press Front Sight there is a blurb stating the SC module is being prepared. I sent an email to HQ about a month ago to ask and was told there are no (SC) classes in my area scheduled.
Reading the blurb in Front Sight it's a little confusing. It appears that current NROI certified ROs can just take the SC module. Then it refers to an online module. Am I correct in assuming that current NROI ROs will be able to get the SC endorsement by taking an online class and test? If so does anyone have any idea when this will be available?
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One other thing about the BMT tool. When I first started shooting revo I purchased a bunch of the carbon steel moons from Revolver Supply Company, the ones that cost 3 or 4 dollars each. They are about the least expensive but still quality moons. They work fine and I have been using them in my iron sight 929 for a full 2 years. However, the hole in the center of the moons is not round like the TKs or the DAAs, rather it is (I think) 6 sided.
So, to get the BMT loader to work with Revolver Supply Company moons, you need an adapter which costs about $10.00 The adapter is a small but powerful magnet that centers the moon clip on the loader. When I wanted to purchase more moons, I went again with Revolver Supply again because I didn't want to take the chance of losing the adapter at a match or have to fiddle with the BMT tool in the field.
I have no complaints with the Revolver Supply moons, but just be advised that when you plan on tools and moons there are things to consider. I also have TK moons for my 686, those are fantastic moons.
On the subject of moon clips, if you decide on magnetic moon clip holders for your belt, you might need to consider what holders you get depending on what moon clips you decide on. If you are only shooting steel challenge then (obviously) you will not need holders on your belt, just don't run out of ammo after you move to the center box in Outer Limits LOL!!!. The plated stainless moons are not as magnetic as the carbon steel moons. Both TK and Revolver Supply (and maybe others) sell moon clip checkers. These mimic the cylinder so you can check that the loaded moon will fit in your gun without actually loading your gun. I have the TK checker, love the tool, if the moon clips fit that tool they will absolutely fit in the gun.
If it hasn't already been mentioned, moon clips can be brass specific. I have (2) 929s. One works best with Federal brass and .035 moons, the other Winchester brass and .040 moons. I'm sure some/most would fix the problem and get both to use the same moons/brass but for now it works. I have a friend that shoots a 929 that eats anything, mixed brass and mixed moon clips. Just something to consider when ordering a big lot of moon clips. Revolvers are a lot of fun to shoot but it takes some effort to get them dialed in -in my experience.
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I'm not the measure of all things Revolver but another that uses the DAA Race Master, also no support. I have found that it's good to snug up the screws from time to time, I spray a bit of silicone in to it once in a while and keep it clean (in the internals). It took a while for it to break in. When it first go it one of the screws fell out (after using it for a while), another was very lose. Now I keep a set of spare screws and wrenches in my bag.
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I use the BMT for my 929s (rimless) There is a little bit of a knack required to keep the ammo from falling down when loading. But once you figure it out, it is, in my opinion the easiest and fastest way to load moons. I use .040 thick moons on my open 929. Those really are a tight fit in the rim so it is usually easier to use the standard tubular de-mooning tool and a gloved hand to remove ammo from the moon clips. I also have a Revolver Supply Company Ultimate tool for my 686. Works good but slower than the BMT. A lot less expensive also.
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On 4/29/2018 at 11:47 AM, J_Allen said:
Thanks, that’s what I thought. I’m going to be shooting my 625 again this year (2nd year USPSA), but am looking around for a possible new gun. Saw that the PC 686 plus was marketed towards “competition”, but didn’t really understand the niche. If shooting minor I’d want 8 rounds. If I was looking for home defense I sure wouldn’t be using the orange front blade. I guess it could always serve the purpose of fun range gun (i.e. you don’t always have to have a reason for wanting a new gun). Just surprised S&W is making such a combo. I could see the 4” PC 686 (similar configuration, but only 6 shots), for if you wanted to use speed loaders in IDPA, but wanted to have the option of moon clips. But why not spec out a 627 like this instead?
EDIT: I just realized the extended cylinder release would be illegal in IDPA, so the 4 inch gun doesn’t make sense either (other than “just because”).
For IDPA the 625 with 4" barrel shooting Major is the way to go. For USPSA an 8 shot shooting minor is what you probably want. You will need to keep that gun iron sight to remain in revolver division. For revolver shooters wanting to shoot most if not all divisions in IDPA, USPSA, Steel Challenge and ICORE your collection will need to be 3 or 4 competition revolvers at a minimum. This is not an inexpensive hobby!
When I started shooting revolvers, I had less than 1 year of handgun shooting experience and all of that was IDPA in SSP. Not to speak ill of our IDPA Brethren but me and IDPA are not a good fit. I wanted to get a revolver so I decided to get a 686 that is IDPA legal so 6 shot 4" barrel 38 spl with speed loaders because I don't think moons were legal then in IDPA, this was 2015.
When I started shooting my revo, several friends at my club convinced me to try shooting "outlaw" steel matches. I struggled with a 6 shot speed loader gun for a year then got an 8 shoot gun for the following year. Currently I have (2) two 929s, one is iron sight the other is optic. So at this point I have decided to cut IDPA out of my life and concentrate on SCSA and outlaw steel matches and ICORE and USPSA both of those to a lesser extent. I don't have the time to practice and shoot a lot of ICORE or USPSA. My original 686 cut for moons is going to be used on occasion to shoot ICORE Limited 6 or Classic. I would like to get a 617 rimfire to add to the collection but not now as my budget is way over the top, I need to spend some bux replenishing my supply of Federal SP primers and a few ancillary items I want but don't really need. This is after all (for me at least) recreation, I'm not a shooter of note just someone out to have a pleasant fun day shooting. But all the same I have seen improvement here and there which is what I think you are looking for. For me the small improvements I've achieved has been a long slow climb. It's not an easy gun.
I agree the new 7 shot makes no real sense but I have a friend that bought one to shoot steel, why, I don't know. He has several 8 shots revos to use I guess he wants a challenge.
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Welcome fellow revolver shooter!
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On 4/26/2018 at 4:03 PM, motosapiens said:
I have only tested this in steel challenge, but it is interesting that I'm not any faster if I am looking at the first target vs looking down at the gun (shooting 22 from low ready). In fact, it seemed very slightly faster to start looking at the gun. This has caused me to stop worrying about whether the RO makes me look straight ahead on a uspsa stage, or whether I can turn my head to see the first target. I just don't think it matters.
In Steel Challenge, especially when it is hot and sunny I find it difficult to keep a sharp focus and my full attention on the first plate from the time I assume the surrender position until the buzzer goes off. So I have pondered the question also, not so much from a finding a good sight picture but rather trying to maintain a sharp mind set. Lately, when drawing from a holster in SCSA I have been looking at the target then glancing down at the base of the target then back to the target as I anticipate the buzzer this seems to help me keep my mind more sharper on the task at hand. Maybe I have an attention disorder I don't know about?
I have been goofing around with open rimfire pistol SCSA, not trying to be good at it just having fun. Since the index for that gun is different than my open revo I naturally have to wiggle around to find the dot. So in my goofing around with this gun I have been looking at the dot aimed at the rimfire cone and following it to the first target. This is probably a slow (and dumb) method and if I were serious about RFPO I would practice bring the gun up as one would normally would but I'm actually satisfied with the scores I have been getting in this cof, better than I actually deserve given the lack of training and effort.
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Welcome to the forum. And poverty!
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On 4/28/2018 at 8:56 AM, Tokarev said:
Well, in Lee's defense, Dillon uses a similar reset feature on their powder measures. Granted, it is a rod rather than a ceiling fan pull chain.
LOL
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On 4/28/2018 at 8:58 AM, Tokarev said:
True that the Hornady is only $130 more but you're considering the Lee as a complete and ready to load machine against a Hornady that still needs dies and a shell plate. That will add
another $30 for the shell plate and $40 or more for the dies.
For me personally, I already have numerous handgun die sets but still, dies cost what dies cost regardless of what press you use. For shell plates I already have them for most handgun calibers for the LNL but having nothing for Lee so that is how I came up with the $130.00 figure. So for me it would be stupid to get the Lee just to save money.
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Welcome to the forum and to the sport.
Hope the weather improves soon. Here in North East Pennsylvania, we shoot outdoors just about all year round, he only exception is when there is too much snow and ice making the ground conditions too dangerous. Since Jan 1 I have shot in roughly 8 or so matches and have two this weekend.
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If you are shooting 500 rounds/month that is 6000 rounds per year. Or to put it another way, 120 boxes of factory ammo.
This is not a lot by any stretch of the imagination but is still a lot of ammo to make on a single stage or turret press. I thought the same as the OP when I first started handloading. After a month using a single stage, then about 6 months with a turret press then I finally had enough and got a progressive. So along the way I have collected 5 presses. If I were starting from scratch, with what I know today. I would go with the suggestion made by Hi-Power Jack and give the Dillon SDB a good long hard look.
This is a question that gets debated constantly on just about any handloading forum, what press and gear do I need to start saving money on ammo? While it is true there is budget gear out there and it is likewise true that even the budget tackle works, the handloader that decides to go budget and yet expects to supply their match and practice ammo will quickly discover that the low output of entry level stuff is time consuming to use. In my opinion a competition handgun shooter that wants to handload their ammo should have a starting budget of between $800 to $1000 to start. This will get you good stuff and enough speed to allow you time to practice your marksmanship and mow the lawn.
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Long arms?