EricBudd
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There will be a six stage Special Classifier match this Sunday (April 1st, 2007) at Guthsville Rod and Gun Club. In addition to the classifier stages we are planning to have 1 large field stage to round out the match.
Registration opens at 10. The match starts at 11:00.
More information can be found at GuthdsvilleUSPSA.com
Eric Budd
Match Director
eric.h.budd@gmail.com
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Before we get too far off topic...Amidon (head of NROI) considers putting a 40 barrel into a G20 to be illegal in Production. Shooting 40 through the 10mm barrel...he is OK with.
That's asinine.
So swaping barrels is ok.
Shooting a cartridge not the same as the one stamped on the silde is ok.
Shooting a round not intended for the chamber cut into the barrel is ok.
Shooting a same-caliber cartridge different than the one stamped on the slide,with an appropriate replacement barrel is NOT ok.
How about I order a "10mm" replacement barrel with the chamber reamed insufficiently deep?
Now you've learned how to play the game!
which is what is wrong with the game......
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This Sunday March 4, 2007 we will be holding a USPSA match at Guthsville Rod and Gun
Club near Allentown, PA. Setup starts at 8. Registration opens by 10 and the match
starts around 10:30.
If the bays are safe to use, the match will be outdoors otherwise we will shoot indoors.. Movement maybe limited based on the range conditions. The match director is planning for 5-6 stages including a classifier and a standards course. More info can be found at www.guthsville.com
Hope you see some of you there.
The bays are wet and snow covered and kinda muddy. That said , stage movement will be limited but the match will be outside. Bring extra socks and waterproof boots.
Food will be available at the match around lunch time.
Regards,
Eric Budd
Match Director
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While some harp about the relationship between the SSC and USPSA in this division it is beneficial to both of us. The SSC is again hosting the USPSA Single Stack Nationals. They have enlarged the match, and have once again filled up quickly. Each of these shooters have to be members of USPSA. Last year we gained about 40 new members because of this single fact. In addition the match must pay activity fees to USPSA at 5 dollars a shooter. USPSA gets good press out of the match. The match cost USPSA no money, and they use our rules. It is a win-win situation for USPSA.
To open the division up to all guns would kill that relationship.
So I am back to the original question. Do we gain more than we lose?
Gary
So 40 new members and a few grand in activity fees is all it takes to get a new division created? If that is the case, may I humbly submit Open Revolver for consideration by the BoD. There have to be more than 40 ICORE shooters who would join USPSA if they could play with their fancy round guns and not be at a disadvantage. Maybe just go with Open 10 instead to accomidate open revolvers and to facilitate growth of the Open division is capacity limited states.
I just don't see the reason of a whole new division to accomidate a single match and a sigle pistol design - especially since those guns were perfectly competitive in L10. I know some will argue about tradition is the roots of the sport..... but times change. Maybe we should have a Weave-Stance only division or a dead animal holster division?
Just my .02. I'm tired of the organization tring to cater to a few special interests while at the same time wanting to eliminate a popular divison (whihc they don't shoot) on the arguement that we have too many divisions.
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And they want to hold the IDPA Nat's near Allentown, PA this year?
Fly into anti-gun Philadelphia?
Methinks there are better states that I would rather spend by gun-tourism dollars in.
Yep. Fly into Allentown or Harrisburg. Skip Philiadelphia, NJ, and NY airports.
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HR is where they send someone they can't fire, for reasons that can't be spoken out loud, but genereally the rumours are true that she is shagging the boss.
I am NOT shagging the boss. He isn't my type.
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4 inches
Thanks Mr. Walsh now that same length requirement doesn't apply to IPSC or ICORE does it?
Timpe
Nope, they are still legal in USPSA and ICORE. IDPA banned the 5 inch barreled revolves about 5 years ago since they were not 'pratical'.
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I read the complete change summary document and then looked up many of the changed rules and to be honest did not see anything that would really change the way I shoot. I shoot L-10 and Revolver and none of the rule changes seemed to change the equipment or way I shoot those two divisions. Maybe I have missed something.
mcb
That is because L10 survived by 1 vote (after a bit of an uproar). Get involved. Next time you might not be so lucky.
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How many CZs are seen in competition vs. Glocks????
I like the CZ but it's a very limited thing....
My Glock has run for years without any breakage....
Mick
A27257
p.s. I carried a Colt 1911 until they MADE me switch!!!
Actually, CZ's are making inroads in Production, at least locally. We have a number of shooters using them at the local matches. Not as many as Glocks, but some. I'm seeing a greater variety of guns in Production: Glocks, XDs, M&Ps, and yes CZs. That is the nice thing about Production - no one platform dominates.
Consider the Nationals; 1st was an XD, 2nd was a CZ, and 3rd was a Glock. Does that mean that a CZ or XD is better than a Glock? No. It just means that the guns will do the job if the shooter does.
Of course, this has nothing to do with the original thread.
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Does anyone know if Guthsville will be having it's monthly match on Jan 7th?
Yep. We are having the match. The plan is a 5 stage indoor revolver friendly match with a classifier and a break for lunch (while we reset). There will be a hot lunch available for $5.
Since the match is indoors most of the stages will be shoot from the box. There will also be standards including strong and weak hand shooting. You might want to know where your gun shoots at 25 yards.
There will not be much 'freestyle' due to the limits of our indoor facility. So, come on down - but you have been warned.Registration opens at 10:00, shooting starts 10:30-10:45.
Email me if you have any questions. eric.h.budd@gmail.com
Sincerely,
Eric Budd
MID19
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This is pure speculation on my part ---- but I'm guessing it's a fix for the true measurements of a 2x3 or 2x4. That said, fault lines at our club are generally red painted 1x3s --- which at .75 inches tall are clearly illegal......
I use red/orange 1x2's. They are the same as the target stands which means I only need 1 kind of stick. I could be wrong, but wouldn't using 2x3's or 2x4's increase the change of tripping? (Besides, 1x2's or 1x3 weigh less when your setting up a local match at 7:00 AM.)
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I find it funny that Voight voted yes for the 3 lb. rule after I saw him on Shooting USA during the Bianchi Cup complaining on TV about the 2 lb. rule placed upon them. I wonder if he would vote yes on a minimum trigger pull for open?
I've been shooting Production all this year and plan to shoot Production in 2007. However, with the proposed changes to Production to make it more something (TaticalKewl, MallNija, IDPA friendly?) I'm starting to think I should just move to Limited. Seems enough of the higher-ups shoot Limited and Open so those divisions ought to be safe from tinkering with the rules
.Eric
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Area 8 moves to exempt revolvers from the mag position and box dimensions in Production Division. - Passed
I guess, in the 2008 rule book, 7 and 8 shot revolvers could play in production and put their moonclips/speed loaders in front. With the proposal to limit shots per location to 8 rounds (for Single Stack) an 8 shot revolver could be (kinda) competitive in production.
I wonder if this change will make it easier for ICORE shooters with 7 & 8 shot guns to come and shoot USPSA?
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IPSC is hard to understand. 
Yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense since you can call Angus and get a SP-01 with all the OEM parts that make the gun a Shadow. I hope USPSA does things better with the 2008 rule book.
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The "respectively" part of my statement is that open shoots against open and limited vs. limited. Course design would limit the number of shots from any given spot to eight with the next available targets being at least 10 steps from the last. The Mid-Atlantic Section had this in place for years. Didn't matter what you shot and you got to see where you finished overall. It was more heads-up. Keeping to that would render at least 3 divisions (and thier rules) obsolete. Major/minor as usual.
Oh, and I volunteer my time to course design, build and run stages for at least 3 larger events a year, along with our club's monthly match. I also help at another. No sitting on the sidelines for meee!
Bill,
I agree with you that a well designed course of fire will help level the playing field. It won't be level of course, but it will be closer. The problem is that designing a course of fire is hard. I know. I run a monthly match and I suck at designing courses.
One thing I have noticed is that there are lots of books and videos on how to shoot our sport but there are not any books on how to run a club/match and design stages. I know there are places on line where you can 'borrow' stages but that doesn't help you learn how to design them.
Any yes, I have noticed that many shooters can't shoot at 25 or 50 yards. I try have some longe range standards but I've found most shooters don't like those stahges and perfer 30 rounds at 3-7 yards.
Eric (Mid 19)
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If you don't want the rulebook to change for 5 years then you should vote to keep the current rule book exactly as it is.
And if you do want to make changes to the current rulebook then I think this answers the 5-year-ban-on-changes issue.
OK. Sounds good to me. Lets just keep shooting the way we have been. Production is a bit murky but I can live with it.
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And why do we need to make the divisoins closer to each other? Isn[thte differences why we have divisions? Does nayone here REALLY want tohave just one division? Welcome to Open winning nearly everything, Limited a distant second and the rest just sort of bringing up the rear.
Most really good people shooting a Limted gun agains JJ are going to finish aroud 80% The average shooter?
Let's look at this a different way. Run the divsions as they are, but make the unoffical combined divisions, available at all levels. It answers both groups, those that want to have "Real" Competition can sign up as and Overall Only Shooter, they only win in the combined results and gat awarded on a top down basis.
THe rest of us still play in the divisional worls we have all come to know. Only difference is that lets say Billy Ray wins the Match in the Overalll Only group, he is removed from the payout schedule for the Divisinal shooters.
Yes, it needs a little work, but maybe it answers al lthe concerns of eveyone. Heck, a Match Director COULD declare a Match as a TOp Down Combined Match if the local crowd wanted it. Actually there is no real reason we couldn't do this now. Who would know except those that at affected???
Jim
+1
I like the idea of letting the match director decide if they want a 'Top Down' match based on what their shooters want - but I'd bet only the Open shooters would what that. I also like to post combined results for matches for the guys who are curious how they stack up.
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Yeah, and that's the vital point here, IMO. It isn't about safety, it's about not starting another capacity race in Limited.
Again. If they allow 9mm to be legal in Limited, EVERY pistol used today will be behind the curve. If the extra 4 rounds isn't, "that big a deal" than it's just as easy to say leave major at .40.
And, if they do make 9mm legal for Limited, I'll be selling my Limited gun and WILL seriously consider stopping ever shooting USPSA ever again and just shoot IMGA 3-Gun.
Rich
The same thing might be said by members if we take Limited 10 away or radically alter Production. The point is, leave the divisions alone. My suggestion was meant to get exactly your reaction from Limited shooters since they tend to be the shooters who want to see L10 go away because it dilutes competition. (Of course, if we want to maximize the numbers of competitors in a division, we should all shoot Limited 10.)
It is OK to make a guy with a 12-15 round gun shoot in Limited but the guys with $$$ invested in their top-of-the-line Limited guns don't want the rules to change in any way that disadvantages them. The point is that everyone favors rules that give them an advantage - or at least don't put them at a disadvantage - without really considering what the change means to the guy who gets screwed by the change.
Eric
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While a stabilized set of rules is a good idea, tell me how they will stay stable with the advances of technology and new equipment designs.
Aditionally getting the rules to where there are no grey area and eeryhting is black and white will also be a monumental task.
If there is a stability of rules that in itself will be a death keel to the sport too.
Difficult line to walk on both sides of the topic.
Alan
New technology and new designs can play in Open. When the rule book is up for review again in 2013 we can decide if the new technology has a place in the other divisions.
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Now who picked this place? 7 1/2 hours to get there from the East coast, no direct flights, and expensive airfare.
7 1/2 hours? How fast do you drive? From eastern PA it is 2,331 mi (about 1 day 15 hours) according to Google Maps. For the guys on the East coast this is a 'must fly' match.
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What USPSA needs is one set of stable rules that once their put into place...stay that way for a minimum of 5 years. Settle the PSSD rules, work out this "deal" with IPSC, solidify the number of Divisions....then leave the rules alone.
USPSA changes rules as much as mother nature changes the weather pattern in Western N.Y.
+1
Once the 2008 rules are published they should be fixed to 2013. (5 years)
Eric
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I can remember when I joined how an Area Dir. would say "USPSA has a million dollars in the bank and will never go below that". The last time I saw it has been below that mark for several years and with proposed rule changes like this it will go even lower. How- decreased membership, decreased mission count, trigger pull gauges, gun boxes..............................
BOD instead of doing the "USPSA Way" that has been done for years, making the membership pay to play by new rules, driving off current members, and make it so potential members don't want to join. Try to do something that will have a positive impact all the way around.
Rich
I agree that we need to increase membership and that any rule changes should take that into account. The last thing I need as a match director is more restrictive rules that makes it harder for me to get new shooters involved.
Without addressing specific rules, here are a few of my thoughts:
- Have a standard approved new shooter training program.
- Have a simplified rule book/pamphlet that covers the basics for new shooters. New shooters don't want to read a 100 page rule book.
- Provide activity credits to clubs that send in new membership applications.
- Have marketing material focus more on Production, L10, and SSD instead of Open.
I also think a part of getting new shooters in the sport is having places to shoot locally. If possible, I think an effort should be made to get more USPSA clubs started and make it easier for clubs to get started. I know from my experiences last year that it isn't easy.
Having a guide to getting a club started with limited finances and help would be a great resource. Explain what you need, at minimum, and how to build it inexpensively. Also list recommended resources for timers, steel, and props.
Eric
- Have a standard approved new shooter training program.
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I currently shoot production with a XD 40 Tactical. I've decided to send the XD out for some work.
Trigger Job is a must but the rest of my options I have not decided on.
I have settled on Dawson sights (Fiber front/Plain rear) but am not sure if I should go adj or fixed. I like the low profile and simplicity of the fixed. The adjustable are tall and look fragile but the adjustability might be useful??
Also has anyone had their stock barrel refitted? If so did you notice a real improvement on accuracy? The slide on both my XDs have enough play I find it hard to believe any real gains in accuracy will result from it.
You might want to read about the proposed rule changes to Production for 2008 if you are thinking about getting a trigger below 3 pounds. Of course, nothing is set in stone and we don't have the proposed rule book yet.
As for me, I think I'll leave my production gun alone till the rules are finalized.
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As I shoot a DA/SA gun, and have to deal with 6.5# first shot on a 50 yd standard, I like it.
TY
JK
What do you shoot JK? CZ? Your first shot is 6.5#. What about subsequent shots? Pure curiosity, I have no clue. If you have a first shot of 6.5# and the other 9 at 1.5#, it may not be much of a disadvantage.
The problem (if it is a problem) is that shooters are making major modifications to their striker fired pistols so that they are, in effect, single action triggers with a sub 2 lb pulls. There are/were common modifications that change the geometry of the trigger in the name of 'enhanced reliability'. We all know that the changes were about getting a better/lighter trigger pull to gain a competitive advantage.
I don't care so much about where we draw the line, but at some point a production gun ceases to be a production gun. If you want to make major modes and shoot a Glock with a 1 1/2 pound trigger, that is fine; it just might not be production.
Of course, I think that allowing the XD as a production gun was a mistake - it is as much double action as a CZ SA.
I know that we race and mod our guns to ge a competie advantage. But maybe, just maybe, Production isn't the place for that.
There will not be much 'freestyle' due to the limits of our indoor facility. So, come on down - but you have been warned.
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IPSC is hard to understand. 
Trigger Pull Limits
in IDPA Shooting
Posted
If you are going to get the gun done send it to Matt Mink or Angus. They do great work and the turn around time isn't bad. I've been able to play with a few guns done by Matt and the trigger is amazing.