[Moving to Open too soon?]

1 hour ago, shred said:

Around here Open has grown quite a bit as the CO shooters wanted to see what was over the next hill.

 

same here. CO has really been a gateway drug to open in our locale.

[Moving to Open too soon?]

22 hours ago, Joe4d said:

well these days 9mm is where its at for custom builds,

seems different where we are. almost all the local gm and m's shoot 38sc, and everyone who ordered a new gun in the last year ordered 38sc, probably because its an objectively better round for open (better durability, and compensator function). right before we ordered mrs moto's gun we bumped into our local GM (top 25-30 at multiple nationals) who was really fighting with his 9mm gun a bit and trying to figure out how to get it to shoot like his 38.

 

To me it seems dumb to spend 5-8k on a gun and knowingly choose a caliber that will make the wear out or break sooner just to try to save a couple bucks on brass (or a little trouble of picking up brass).

 

Anyway, back to the OP. I don't know that there's any disadvantage to switching to open. From what I've observed with others, it really allows you to concentrate on all the other stuff required by the game, since the shooting and recoil management and reloads are less of thing to worry about. All those other movement and blending and planning skills will still be useful in other divisions.

[Production mag capacity]

18 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Yeah, I wouldn't add a division for L-minor we have to many divisions. But we currently don't have a place for high cap iron sight 9mm which is a extremetly common handgun. But Prod 15 is at least pretty close

we have a place for high cap iron sight 9mm, we just don't have a place where that gun is guaranteed an affirmative-action advantage. But it's painfully obvious that the world has given up on iron sights in competition. the numbers for every division are low. In many local matches (like ours) a minor shooter often wins limited division, beating the other 2 noobs.

[Production mag capacity]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

How do we know no one wants to shoot Limited/minor if we've never tried it? 

because no one shoots A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want, and no one shoots limited, and no one shoots production, and no one shoots ss minor.

[Production mag capacity]

not sure it matters. production seems dead. A1 only had 36 shooters, and 2nd place was 15% off the winner.

 

i can't think of any changes to production that will make it attractive to new or experienced shooters.

[White River Energetics Primers]

more competition is good. local grocery store has winchester spp for $70/k, and I have to get milk anyway.

[Production mag capacity]

nobody likes lo-cap regardless. Our local matches very rarely have stupid stage designs like those mentioned above, and the most recent example i can think of was stolen from a major match which had a stupid stage design (unfortunate, imho). But even with good stages that are friendly to production and even pretty friendly to SS we get like 1 or 2 people that shoot those divisions.

 

even with 24 rounds in the gun, it's funner to shoot stages that break up into 5's, 6's, 7's and 8's, with the occasional 2-3. when we have a stage that allows you to shoot 10-12 from one spot, its generally not an advantage because many of those same targets are available from some other spot where everyone has to go anyway.

 

Anyway, 15 might make a difference. It would definitely reduce the reloads on our stages because we almost NEVER see 8-8-8-8 nonsense.

[Limited Major dying?]

3 minutes ago, shred said:

USPSA just needs to drop the dumb "must have a dot" rule for LO and CO.  It won't matter one bit to the finals, but makes for much better catch-alls for new shooters than Limited.

 

agree 100%. there is no longer really any chance of stoeger showing up with iron sights and embarrassing the top CO shooters and making the division look dumb.

[Limited Optics with a Converted 40 Cal Limited Gun - Let's DO THIS!!!]

7 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

My 2023 Major Match Season is now finished this past weekend. I shot the Colorado State Championships and the New Mexico Section Championships in Limited Optics Division using my 40 Cal Atlas Artemis. I was able to win both matches with this setup and didn't feel like I was at a significant disadvantage from a magazine capacity perspective.

 

color me not surprised.

 

we are going to put a dovetail mount dot on mrs moto's limited gun for winter, mostly because I don't want to hunt for 38sc brass in the snow.

[Limited Major dying?]

44 minutes ago, NoahBeretta said:

I wonder if that is affected by the sheer volume of shooters choosing CO over Lim Major though? 

i'm comparing my own scores in each division in the overall of our local match. we have some pretty consistent open m and gm shooters, and when I shoot CO i get a slightly higher percentage of their score compared to when I shoot limited.

 

there are some other things that factor into it, for example i think stages have gradually gotten harder over the last few years (longer distances, more partials), and my eyes are gradually getting weaker, and i'm shooting a CO gun i love. 3-4 years ago i was dabbling in CO and typically doing *worse* than limited, but it was also due to budget co builds with crappy dots and not very much dot experience, compared to a high-end limited gun with years of experience shooting it.

[Limited Major dying?]

15 minutes ago, MHicks said:

I think Ron is suggesting a division allowing 40 major iron sights and 9mm minor with optics. That could be an interesting trade off.

 

based on what i've seen at local matches, and area matches, and in my own shooting, CO generally scores a few% better than lim major on most stages.

[Is Atlas worth the price difference over MPA?]

i wouldn't buy any $3500+ gun to shoot idpa (or CO or LO).

 

We have 2 atlas titans that are good guns for the money ($3700 each when we bought them), but I don't know that I'd pay what they want now for them, and they are 40s for limited so the steel grip makes some sense. I don't see any reason for a steel grip on a minor gun. i can definitely draw, reload and transition faster with a polymer grip.

 

We have a brazos open gun, and an old very nice sti edge as well, but until recently i've been most happy lately shooting a much more reasonably priced shadow2. For idpa tho you may need the original shadow to make weight.

 

Recently I stumbled upon a staccato P, and I have to say I'm, pretty impressed with it so far. The dot doesn't jump noticeably more than my shadow2, and I seem to be able to shoot accurately slightly more quickly (probably due to the better trigger). Best of all, it didn't require any tweaks or mods or fixes other than the normal adjustments to the leaf spring to reduce pressure on the sear and trigger pull. I can't get it to malfunction at all, and the trigger is imho very nice for a gun out of the box.... nice enough that i'm not even going to bother getting my local gunsmith to clean it up.

 

regarding cleaning, i don't care what everyone else does. I typically do live fire practice 1-2 days before a match, and then clean the gun the night before the match, so I go 250-300 rounds between cleaning normally. every 2nd or 3rd cleaning i remove the extractor on a 1911/2011, and once a year in the winter I strip it down to individual parts, clean, inspect and reassemble. My guns seem to run reliably and last a long long time, so I don't see any reason to change, and my habit of cleaning a gun the night before a match gives me something constructive to do with my hands while i sip a beer.

[Limited Major dying?]

On 10/22/2023 at 8:54 AM, shred said:

The FBI giveth and the FBI taketh away.  Next time they need a scapegoat for losing a shootout everyone will rush back to the .40 again.  

 

haha, true story. Personally I believe the FBI has no ulterior motives (like getting more chicks and poofs to be able to pass their quals) if they tell me that getting hit by a yugo feels the same as getting hit by a crown vic.

[2023 CO and Iron Sight Nationals]

5 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

I've just recently started trying to design stages, and 30 round stages are hard for me. I lay some stuff out that I like, count it up and it's typically 18-24 rounds. I don't think I've designed a 32 round stage yet lol.

 

I got all the way up to 30 last sunday, but 24-28 is more common for me for a large field course. I certainly don't mind 32 every now and then tho. Shooting is fun. Sometimes big stages have big round counts.

[2023 CO and Iron Sight Nationals]

15 hours ago, ddc said:

(snipi)

Yes, that is a sample size of one. YMMV, I get it.

 

But I can say this match, although somewhat "truncated" due to various factors. I think it is a reasonable example of how things usually work around here.

 

I wonder sometimes if we just have exceptionally high-quality local matches here. We certainly have some elite shooters and CRO/RM folks and guys who have MD'd and otherwise worked lots and lots of majors. 

 

I've shot majors all over the west, but I've only shot local matches in idaho, oregon, and washington.... however all those local matches were at least as good as ours.... and also run by very experienced and skilled folks. Maybe we are just lucky....

[Failure to shoot at]

1 minute ago, dmshozer1 said:

 

How can you make a statement that B shooters are not as honest as any other shooter?

 

lol. I see honest folks and weasels spread throughout the skill continuum. I think better shooters tend to be more certain about their shot-calling, so they are often not surprised at a penalty call, and will tell me not to waste my time with an overlay because they know their 2nd shot went over the right shoulder or wherever. But better shooters also make far fewer mistakes, so they have less stuff to be weaselly about.

 

I do remember shannon smith going off on a semi-elite gm on the super squad at nationals once about being a weasel tho, and trying to weasel out of an FTSA in fact. Shannon was also nice to my dogs, so he is super duper OK in my book.

[Failure to shoot at]

18 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

One would think, but PCCs as you mentioned are an issue, and unless you see the shot timer register every shot, you cannot say for certain.  Again you are in a place of not being 100% sure; therefore, you cannot make the call.  

 

that's why i said 'corroborating'. I definitely wouldn't base a decision on the timer info. However, If i'm certain that you didn't shoot a target, and I also know you didn't fire any makeups, and I also was close enough to be pretty confident that the timer picked up the shots, the timer can add a little extra weight because it agrees with everything else we know. In my experience, that would really only happen on a smaller stage like a virginia count short course or classifier. I've used it for extra shots too, when someone claims tape fell off a target in a fixed time stage, i explain that a) I counted 13 shots, b) the other RO counted 13 shots, c) the timer counted 13 shots, and d) there are 13 holes in cardboard.

[Failure to shoot at]

1 hour ago, sfinney said:

Back in the day we’d review the shot timer for # of shots. If it added up to the right amount…. And if no one noticed someone shooting a target 4 times, or extra shots, it was always benefit of doubt. 
 

I think the key part of thread here is “assumed” based on what others had done. If you didn’t see it, don’t call it.

on some stages, looking at the shot timer can add extra corroborating info, but it is extremely common on a big stage to miss a few of the shots, especially with quieter pcc's.

[Failure to shoot at]

1 hour ago, shred said:

Every time I've called a penalty on myself it hasn't mattered one whit in the overalls of any major match, and I've had to do it a few times over the years.

 

Not admitting to mistakes is a great way to stay in B class.   Maku Mozo and all that.

  

 

did this at nationals.... RO was carefully examining 2 targets (available from multiple positions) looking for holes, and I said "dude, I didn't even shoot at those.... completely forgot them after nailing the timing on a swinger".

[Failure to shoot at]

1 hour ago, dmshozer1 said:

Took my RO class in 1994. Gave it up five years ago when I could no longer keep up with shooters.

I have ROed one pistol Nationals, many many Area 7 events, many, many, many 3g events. ROed the FN 3gun matches

$300,000 prize table. CROed it twice. Larry Houke ran it. You did not show up at this match to  RO or CRO. you were invited. Finished my career ROing local and  local section matches.

One would assume I know a thing or to about ROing.

sounds like you are way too experienced to think that a good RO can't notice a bunch of other things besides the gun.

 

It also sounds like you either think you got hosed at a local match by an RO who just assumed you didn't shoot at something, or you actually didn't shoot at it and were hoping to get off on a technicality. Either way, my recommendation is to shoot at the targets and hit them and you will be happier.

 

Regarding 'scoring at the line'.... what we typically do is immediately note any steel left standing and whether it was shot at or not (in case the shooter wants to challenge. I don't announce typically announce FTSA at a paper target until I get there, and I typically double-check with the other RO's on the stage for confirmation before making the call.

[Failure to shoot at]

24 minutes ago, dmshozer1 said:

Sorry but the RO's main job is to watch the gun because that is where the most safety infractions come from.

It is the score keepers job to watch for fault line penalty's along  with 180 violations etc. Sometimes the RO is out of position to see a 180. Yes that happens.

I'm not sure what your experience level is as an RO, and I appreciate your thoughtful comments, but in my experience (11 years as an RO/CRO working major matches), you are simply incorrect. Every good RO can watch the gun and also watch the targets, spectators, fault lines, timer and a few other things as well.

 

However, one might not always be able to say for sure whether a target was shot at or not, and if you're not sure,  you don't apply the penaltyl.

[2023 CO and Iron Sight Nationals]

On 10/12/2023 at 11:01 AM, BritinUSA said:

The emphasis for most clubs is round-count, they are appealing to the most common shooter in the sport, the hobbyist who just want to have fun.

 

 

i have not observed that at any of the clubs where I shoot. What uspsa clubs have you shot at recently that emphasized round-count?

[Par Time, Field Course]

it seems self-evident that the RO should make an effort to place the timer where the shooter can hear it. the bigger the stage is the more care that requires.

 

I have worked fixed time field courses at area and national matches. we only had 1 person not hear the beep, and as it turned out that was a timer malfunction. somehow the beep got turned off in between shooters so there wasn't any beep to hear.

 

several people did express concern about being able to hear it, so we made sure to be holding the timer right next to their ear.

 

I think in the real world, the necessity of hearing the end beep somewhat limits the sorts of stages you can do. It's also kind of annoying for the RO to have to stay that close to people shooting obnoxious loud-ass open guns.

[Failure to shoot at]

2 hours ago, dmshozer1 said:

When a shooter is moving fast through a complicated stage, It is almost impossible to determine exactly what they are shooting at.

 

that has not been my experience in RO-ing hundreds of fast shooters through complicated stages at Area and National matches. Most of the time multiple RO's independently notice which target was missed.

 

At a local match with embedded RO's only running a few shooters at a time, it can be harder to tell, but once you've run a few people and learned the stage, it becomes pretty obvious.

[Failure to shoot at]

2 hours ago, dmshozer1 said:

The RO has no idea what targets have been shot at if the RO was doing their job and only watching the shooters gun.

 

you need to unlearn this misconception. it is not the RO's job to 'only' watch the gun. It is the RO's job to enforce all safety and competitive rules. This means watching the gun, fault lines, targets, and whatever else is necessary.

 

For sure, it is sometimes challenging to know for sure that a shooter didn't shoot at a target, and the RO shouldn't apply that penalty without being sure. It is often helpful to consult with other ROs that were hopefully paying attention.