Gun Geek
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Posts posted by Gun Geek
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John,
GG,
I think your only real option is to disconnect the dock from the house ground then "ground" it to the H20 via multiple (stainless?) probes into the water. If the water's acting as a 5K ohm resistor per contact point, you'll want a lot of contact points to cut that down so that it's less than a person. 10 probes ought to get you down to 500 ohms (theoretically). Might want a few more for good measure.
You will just have to make sure that nothing you plug into the outlets externalizes the outlet ground, so that the ground path doesn't get closed again. Less that perfect, but I think as close to "safe" as you can get short of resorting to extraordinary means.
Leaving the dock totally ungrounded as one EE said seems like a recipe for disaster. Hot wire gets into contact and it will simply turn into a 120/240V electric fence for some hapless swimmer/boater to fry themselves on.
Eric,
We're on the same lambda. I was thinking some copper sheets suspended about 15' below the dock (water is 60' off the front of the dock, 25' off the back - closest to the shore).
A more "orthodox" solution would be better for the general observers, but there may not be a good orthodox solution...
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I knew this was an interesting topic.
Gotta underline a couple of points:
1) The dock was originally wired with the neutral tied to the frame. That neutral has a direct path back to the ground rod up the hill (this is the same point where the service is tied from the power co). This neutral is the exposed conductor in the triplex. I inherited this situation
2) The dock now has a 4th wire added. It is also tied directly to the ground point up the hill. This wire is an isulated #6 solid copper. Now the netral wire is not tied to the metal frame of the dock, but the ground wire is. This was done for exactly the reason Eric identified, the risk is that a loose hot could electrify the dock with 120 AC, which is not good. Now a short will blow a breaker - dramatic, but safe.
"In this case, I tend to side with John because of the metal dock. If it was a wooden dock, I'd feel differently. The problem is that a short to the dock, without being on a common ground to the house electricity could possibly leave the dock charged."
3) With all power removed (breakers open on the phases) you still get a shock. The only path is to the ground rod up the hill. The shock is from the difference in potential of the earth ground up the hill and the potential of the water. You do not get a shock if you disconnect both the neutral and the ground wire (did this only with the phases off) Re-connect the either the neutral or ground and the shock comes back. My theory is that the potential exists because the soil is dry and therefore the ground at the top of the hill is at a higher potential than the water. This indicates that one solution may be to drive more/deeper rods at the top of the hill. But more grounding at the top of the hill may not work either - See #4
4) Driving a ground rod at the dock is not possible. The top soil is maybe 3' - 4' at the top of the hill and zero at the dock. The geology is that of a limestone canyon. Here in Central KY, limestone lurks below everything (this is the land of Mammoth Cave and Horse Cave, and the limestone is why we have good Bourbon). This lake is a dammed up (big) ditch created by eons of erosion. Officially this formation is the Kentucky River Palisades, and this lake is a dammed up tributary of the KY River, called the Dix River. The water eroded away the topsoil and the limestone forming the ditch. The shore is limestone - there no soil into which one can drive a ground rod. Also the yearly water level fluctuation in this lake is on the order of 30 - 50 feet. It is a has been a hydro lake, but now it is primarily flood control (plant was converted to coal fired steam and coal gas fired turbine generation. The power generated by the hydro isn't enough to light the other boilers!, but I digress).
5) Flex - this is more than a swimming dock (I bet your image is a little floating affair about 10' x 10'). Not so. THIS is a party dock. 45' x 45', 3 boat slips, refrigerator, freezer, microwave, pizza oven, wet bar (cold water hose down the hill). One goes down the hill in the morning and does not go back up the hill until bed time.
. There are 2 phases down the hill because of the current load - we have 2 circuits each carrying lower current so we don't trip breakers. Maybe some pics will be forthcoming. 6) All outlets are GFCI
Eric, I also have an EE degree, and, just as you said, we didn't cover this kinda real world stuff either.
I don't like the idea of not tying the dock to a ground - More research, and keep up the discussion.
BTW I have spoken to 3 electricians, 2 say ground the dock, one says "float it" just as George descibes. I get a blank stare when I say the ground is what causes the shock.
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You will need to acheive shock protection from the use of GFCI breakers. Personally, I'd cough up the ching and double dip: GFCI outlet and GFCI breaker. Test the breaker(s) by plugging a hand held shop lite into the dock outlet and literally dumping it into the water. Hopefully there will still be enough voltage drop to trip the breaker. If it does, you're probably good to go. If not...
Did exactly this this originally - worked great
It's dangerous as hell to let the situation continue. It only takes MILLIamps to kill. I think it's on the order of 30 to 60 millamps for a fatal shock IIRC. That's .030 to .060 Amps from a circut that's designed to carry 15 to 50 amps.Ground loops are super-dangerous.
Disconnected things after George's post last night - working the re-engineering plan today.
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Drive by courtesy post: Thanks for all of your input.
I, too, was happily surprised that I didn't accidentally shoot up my chrono the first time out.
Chills
I shot mine the 3rd time - after the tension and focus of it being new wore off!
Since then, I tape a target over the front and shoot it - I forget there's a chrono behind it and therefore don't psych myself into shooting the chrono.
Good thing about the CED is that the screens are not too expensive to replace if you just shoot the supports. Miss left or right, not high or low
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Need some help techie electrical types:
Subject is AC power distribution wiring, problem is ground loops causing a mild shock to people climbing in and out of a lake onto a floating dock. This dock has existed for 3 years.
Scenario:
House at the top of the hill - standard modern US house wiring - grounded with a ground rod driven into the earth close to the foundation (water pipes are PVC). Triplex wiring (2 hot and 1 neutral) taken from breakers in the house box running down the hill to a dock floating on a lake. Dock is steel frame construction, floating on styrofoam - it does not touch the bottom. Some of the framing, and an aluminium ladder (bolted to the steel) protrude down into the water. Neutral wire is connected to the frame of the dock. Other end of neutral is connected to the grounding point. If one of the hot wires gets loose and touches the dock, it will short, tripping a breaker. This does not allow the dock to become electified so that a hapless sunbather could get between the frame and ground - getting electrocuted.
When a person swimming in the water and in an upright position (more like treading water) approaches the ladder (or a piece of steel that goes into the water), a mild shock is felt (sensation kinda like putting a 9v battery on your tounge). If horizontal, little or no shock is felt.
Trouble shooting actions:
1) Disconnected the "hot" wires from the dock (opened the breaker) - no change in the shock
2) Disconnected the "hot" and the "neutral" - shock went away.
3) Measured between the ladder rail in the water 500mv DC and 1.5vAC with a cheap digital VM.
First action:
The 3 wire set-up is not exactly code. It is safe as it is, but it has the potential to cause problems if the neutral wire breaks loose. Code is that a separate ground wire should be run, and the neutral not touch any metal (in this case on the dock). The separate ground wire should connect to the frame, and the ground lugs in the outlets.
I ran a separate ground wire and made sure the neutral does not touch the frame of the dock.
Result: No change in the shock!
Second action:
Connected a copper wire and a piece of copper sheet metal 18" square from the frame of the dock and sunk it about 10' into the lake.
Result: shock was less, but not gone.
3rd action:
Isolated the ladder from the steel. The ladder is also bolted to some wood support members, I took the bolt that were through the steel and into the ladder out.
Result: no shock on the ladder, same shock around other steel members.
My diagnosis is that the lake and the grounding point up the hill are at different potentials and running a "ground" wire down the hill & connecting to the frame of the dock (to make the regular AC power safe) brings those 2 potentials into close proximity. The swimmer completes the circuit and thus gets shocked.
This year has been very dry here (grass is brown, dirt is hard and dusty when it is usually moist and soft). I think the dry soil makes the "ground" point at a higher potential (the soil is an insulator) than the lake.
We tried wetting the ground (trickle of water for days) around the grounding point.
Questions:
1) Diagnosis make sense? I think this is a classic ground loop that plagues aircraft refeuling, etc.
2) Is this dangerous? I know your immediate reaction is YES, but I'm not so sure.
3) What else can I do? Drive more ground rods? Wait till it rains again?
This is the "Questions That 'Don't Fit Anywhere'" forum
Thanks!
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Yep,
Stay off the GAP unless you are a true early adopter (Marketing term for geek with cash).
Stay with the 40 and buy & shoot lots of pills.
Leave the GAP stuff to those idiots like me who work with out a net on this stuff, or who have already invested so much that the marginal investment in the GAP would be small
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About $55 down the drain.
I use one of these very cheap ($24.99) lasers and it works great. It doesn't handle being on the gun during live fire very (the zero wanders) but for dry fire it is fantastic.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/...leitemid=701092
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Oh yeah,
It would be nice if Dillon came up with something like RCBS's precision micrometer adjuster for their powder measure.
Chills
I use e'm and I love e'm.
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Shoot 1000 rounds of anything, and the gun's *gonna* be dirty - there's no getting around that. The question is, is it in danger of not running anymore. I think that's more what folks are getting at
Right on!
One of the common threads here (not everyone, but many) is that we would rather be shooting, or with the family than cleaning guns.
"Dirty" doesn't mean much if a gun is stripped and cleaned after every 100 rounds (like your pappy told you). However, if a gun sees 2 or 3 practice sessions plus a match or 2 every week, totaling 500 - 600 rounds, "dirty means a whole lot - you'd spend nearly as much time cleaning the darn things as shooting them.
A Glock or quality 1911 and a decently clean powder and you can clean the gun once a week instead of 3 or 4 times a week and still expect it to run.
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Unclassifieds get to shoot with the Masters - stops the sandbaggers.
Oh, wait, you beat them to, so you should take the Master win and the heads up win!
Go tell'em we said so!
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I want to load .30-06 and .270 Win mostly.
I've loaded a lot of .260 Remington with my 550B and I couldn't be happier with it.
I'm still trying to figure out .223. My bolt-gun seemed to like my loads, but my AR doesn't. I'm also suspecting Varget simply doesn't meter well.
Mike
Varget meters fine - it just feels strange (CRRRRRUNCH). Test it - drop a few charges in cases, don't seat a bullet - take them out of the press and weigh the charge. They will likely be plus or minus 0.05 gn or better. On a 25gn charge, 0.05 is nada. The bigger the charge, the more accurate it will be. I use it in 223 & 308. MOA from heavy-barreled AR and 3/4 MOA from a Savage 110.
I've found that a Dillon measure is plenty accurate for most all but the crazy stuff (sub 1/4 MOA for 1000yrd shots, or 10 shots in the same hole at 100yds from a 6PPC).
I think progressives get a bad rap with rifle ammo because they make it easier for people to take short cuts and make bad ammo. They also make it easier to make more bad ammo if you are sloppy.
If you know how to make good ammo on a single stage, you can make good ammo on a progressive.
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I use X's on a 650 and they work great. They work just the same as with my single stage rock chucker, only faster ;0.
Whether you are using X's on a progressive or a single stage they have their place. X-dies are full length dies (resize the whole case). When you full resize you cause the case to grow (firing stretches the case outhward, sizing squeezes it back down, the metal has to go somewhere, so the case gets longer). The X stops the growth by blocking it with the mandrel. The blockage causes the the neck to thicken.
In tight chambered bolt guns this can be a problem - the dimension of the loaded round at the neck can grow to be too snug a fit and the bolt won't close. This is why I don't full re-size my bolt gun rounds every time (either with a progressive or a single stage). Just resize the neck and the you don't have the problem - for this I use Lee collet dies. This works if you are firing only one gun (or keep track of which brass goes with which gun). I load for 22-250, 308 and 300WSM bolt guns, and I have 1 of each. Here it is critical that you keep track of things like the web thinning and split necks, lest ye have a case sepation, which is exciting. I get 5 - 7 firings out of the 22-250 and 300WSM (high pressure), and 10 -12 out of the 308.
For semi-autos, I use the X and full -length resize each time - if you don't you can have feeding problems. Here I just toss the brass after 10 firings. Calibers here are 223 (AR), 308 (M14) and 30-06 (Garand). I have 20 lots of 100 223 that I rotate, and The 223 is cheap enough to get that I don't mind tossing it. I keep 5 lots of 100 of the 308 auto and 30-06. 10 firings out of the M14 and Garand beat me up enough that I don't get that far very often.
I use a different headstamp for the M14 and the 308 bolt gun so that I don't have to worry about mixing them up.
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2500 in 24 hours
2 loading sessions - Friday night and Saturday (rainy), about 4 hours total time.
I was trying out my new RF100 and had to have a place to put all those primers after they went into the tube
Yep, I was bored.
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shoot 147 grain bullets and its worth reloading...
berrys, or precision delta make cheap enough bullets.
titegroup works great, so does WW231.
if you dont have a glock, master blaster bullets are nice too!
BTW, blazer has been unreliable in my gun(last round fired ejection issues)
so for me, if i were not to reload, i would shoot winchester white box or the brass blazer...or wolf.. all come in at 10-11 a hundred.
i load them for about 7
on another completely different note, i enjoy reloading..it relaxes me
Yup - this is the issue -
I agree with the math. If you are satisfied with shooting Blazer at 140pf and getting what I think is more recoil because of the lighter bullet [insert heavy bullet produces less recoil than a lighter bullet at a given pf discussion here], then rock on.
If I were shooting, and therefore only reloading, 9mm, I would probably do exactly this - shoot Blazer or white box. Since I shoot and load other calibers, and I like 147gn pills, the small additional expense of dies makes it very worthwhile to reload.
Don't shoot wolf - just way too many problems in volume (extractor problems because of steel case, variation in velocity, dirty, squibs).
Harmon - I shoot MBs from a Glock (34 & 17) by the 100s - no problems. Can't use titegroup (I have several threads about this...) - I use HS-6.
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First off, that funnel belongs in the kitchen, in the trash can in the kitchen. Now your case feeder is sticking way up there in the air all by its self, evertime you pull the handle it shakes all over the place and bounces every piece of brass in it all over the place. Take it off the pipe it mounts on and cut the pipe and the feed tube off until the case feeder sits right on the raidus of the bend. Now your case feeder is a lot lower and and most of the shake is gone and you dont need a ladder to put brass in it. A very steady bench is also needed and a strong mt. helps too. The more movement and jerk you can get out of the machine the better everthing works.------Larry
I went a little further than this!
I actually mounted my case feeder to the wall - it doesn't even touch the press - 0 shake.
Worth a picture? Let me know...
Uhhh, I also ditch the funnel.
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I just picked up a G22 and it has the stock barrel in it. I have heard not to shoot lead thorugh Glock barells. However I have seen several shooters at my range use Glocks and MasterBlaster Moly-coats. Now I don't know if they have stock barells or not. My question is, will shooting Moly-coats through a stock barell cause a problem, or be dangerous? Or am I a paranoid?
Matt
Paranoid!
I have about 3000 147gn MBs through several Glock 9mms, as well as a few hundred 200gn through a G36 (45ACP). No problems with build-up (lead or coating). Poly-M is a little different than Moly. It has some Teflon in it, which I think makes it behave differently than straight Moly.
Don't use a real fast powder in the 9mm. I use HS-6 or see below.
Check the e-mail traffic between me and Tom of MB:
I sent an e-mail asking Tom if Poly-M's were OK in a Glock. Below is his response...
-----Original Message-----From: Tom Stidham [mailto:masterblasters@freeze.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2003 8:31 PM
To: XXXXXXX
Subject: Re:Use of Poly-M in Glocks, 223
XXXXX, I shot a Glock 34 last year in production. And won a number of major matches with our bullet in a polygonyl brl. Including Area 1, SV Infinity challenge, Crazy Croc, Northwest challenge and several others. I think you will find this to be the most accurate bullet available for your glock, it was in mine. DVC Tom
Below is Tom's response to my e-mail about problems with the 147s over titegroup. My problem was keyholeing - bullet traveling sideways. This happened in both a Glock 34 and a Beretta 92. The barrel was filling up with the coating.
-----Original Message-----From: Tom Stidham [mailto:masterblasters@freeze.com]
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 9:34 PM
To: XXXXX
Subject: Re:Glock, Leading, Tumbling
XXX, it's the titegroup. If seen this many times. The powder is too fast in that small a case, it compresses the bullet into the rifling, rips off the coating and it won't even spin. This is why we really dislike titegroup and bullseye. If you try a slower powder like Ramshot silhouette, Vit 3n37, or 350 all your problems will clear up. my personal load is 4.3gr silhouette or 3n37 and you won't believe how soft and accurate. DVC Tom
Tom mentions Silhouette, but it is kinda hard to get here. I ended up with 4.3 gns of HS-6, 127 PF.
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Dude!
There's some serious mixed metaphors in this poll.
How about 2 polls:
Newbies:
General allowance for newbies (they won't win anyway)
Allowance on the first time only
Rules are rules - break 'em in right
Experienced shooters:
What rules?
Any carry rig daylight or not
We use some judgement - a peek of light is OK, but it can't be swingn out there like Billy The Kid's six guns!
Rules are rules, no light in the tunnel for you!
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Be aware, this is NOT going to turn into a nasty "The new Rule Book sucks" debate. Moderators are watching.
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OK, so, one of my new shooting buddies here in NoVA wants me to shoot an IDPA match with him. I still have a current card so I figure, what the hell. I was dry-firing earlier and happened to glance in the mirror on the vanity and discovered something- I can see daylight between the belt and holster loop! Now this wasn't my "new rulebook illegal" rig I bought in January that I'm now using for Single Stack- this is my old-school Yaqui Slide. Leather, retains the gun, cocealable, flush against the body. Is this holster really illegal? Also, have the new rulebooks shipped? Another Tactical-thingie come out? Or has Berryville just cut me off?
Technically it is illegal.
As others have said, the problem is understanding ahead of time if a holster will be declared illegal by a paricular MD.
Personally, if the holster meets the other rules (3/4" or less from the body, etc) and a sliver of light showed through the tunnel, no problem.
If this is a club match, you're probably OK anyway. Even if they think that holster is illegal, they probably won't make you go home.
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I am presently less than 24 hours away from ordering a Dillon 650 from Mr.Enos. I had considered ordering a 550 for the sake of the manual indexing,which would be boon when setting up a particular load. However I can only afford one Dillon so I am going for the 650. I am wondering however if there is a simple way to disable auto indexing on the 650 until you get everything set right to go into production. Would removing the index pawl accomplish this?
Thanks
TWBryan
Yes, it would.
However, you'll find that's working too hard. Removing and reinstalling is a bit of a PITA, and not really worth the effort.
If you leave the locator pins off, you can adjust a die, then just move the case back a station and pull the handle again. No muss, no fuss.
2 things you will need to disable:
1) Primer disk advance. Just remove the cam screwed to the frame, no more advance. This way you wo'nt get a bunch of primers in the ski ramp (you'll know what I mean) that you have to re-load into the primer tube. It is very easy to advance the disk by hand if you need to.
2) Casefeed system. I don't mean the feeder (just hit the switch). I mean the cam and casefeed arm that meters cases onto the shell plate. During malfunction clearing it is useful to keep cases from dropping down on to the shellplate. During set-up, just use one case. I had to do a couple of mods to stop this. I used an aluminum post tapped into the frame and a carefully bent piece of wire. Maybe pics one day...
When developing new loads, partiuclarly for a rifle, I often switch modes and use the 650 more like a single stage, or atleast a turret press - I hand feed the particular station I'm focused on and let the case move on around and drop out the other side. If I need to weigh each charge (say I'm making 10 rounds each of 10 charge weights) I remove the powder measure and just pour the hand measured amount through a funnel in the powder die.
You'll love the 650, and the help you can get here.
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Sight Swap
in Glock
I carry a G36 (I like big holes in the bad guy, gun fights are usually over in less than 5 rounds, Glocks go bang when you pull the trigger, Glocks are so ugly that you don't care how beat up it gets in the truck, etc, etc, etc)
Got a sweeeet deal on a cop trade-in 17 that has night sights. They apear to be stock replacements (no fancy work to the slide). The 17 is destined to be a game/experimentation gun, so night sights are not the right thing.
Question is, can I swap the sights between the 36 & 17 (or more likely put the night sights on the 36 and trash the stock Glock sights)?
Thanks Glockers.
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velocity to PF is easy as per above.
PSI to PF (or anything else) is tough. The PSI figures given are peak pressures. What determines how fast (therfore the pf) the bullet goes is force generated (pressure x area of the bullet), and the time for which the force is generated, minus loss to friction. Point is the calculations are complex. This can be done, but people get PhD's and write books in the process.
Take the pressure numbers as a "saftey index". High peak pressures increase your chance of a KB. The pressure number for a given load also is an indicator of how much messing around you can do with a load. Each cartridge has a specified max. For example, you need a major load, the fastest in the book is not fast enough, and the pressure listed is right at the max, don't fool with it. However, If you have 10 or 15% you can doctor it a little, but be very careful and watch for pressure signs.
. There are 2 phases down the hill because of the current load - we have 2 circuits each carrying lower current so we don't trip breakers. Maybe some pics will be forthcoming. 
Ground Loops
in Miscellaneous Topics That Do Not Fit in Any Other Forum
Posted
Oh yeah, the copper will corrode (though since there is less oxygen it won't be as fast as in the air). Stainless probably won't corrode, but anything & everything will get algae growth which will make it less conductive. Gold leaf anyone?
I agree it is an interesting problem. I just wish it was somone else's!