Barrettone

Ladies and Gentlemen: The BoD has adopted the policy of no reshoots being issued for special classifiers. Second entries are still welcome, but unless there is a situation under USPSA rules that calls for a reshoot, none will be given. It is the boards feeling that classifiers are meant to judge a persons skills ON DEMAND. If you trash a classifier, then you trash a classifier. Even though it may not be indicitive of your skill level, there is always next time. Competitors can practice on their own time to hopefully "shoot the lights out", but we can no longer allow someone to call "do-over". Time constraints simply do not allow for it, and we do not wish to tax our RO staff any more than we have to by making them stay after the match to do reshoots in the hot summer sun. We will of course, honor the above persons request to send in his classifier that was re-shot when the funds are received. Sorry for any confusion that was caused, and I hope that this resolves the matter. Nobody, regardless of their IPSC experience can possibly know everything. We continue to learn through valuable forums such as these. Thank you for all your input, shoot straight, and I hope you all have a safe and fun shooting season!!! DVC, Jeff LaFave Livingston Gun Club Vice President

2.546 I gotta swith to Open!!! Barettone

We'll just have to see what hyappens Sunday. We will discuss it, submit proposals, and let the chips fall where they may. I am only one vote...the group (BoD) must decide. No hard feelings exist...just differences of opinion. I respect everyone here enough to seperate the wheat from the chaff. Democracy is a wonderful thing...it usually establishes a happy medium. Jeff

This has been a learning experience for everyone, and as a result of these current events, I have made it MY MISSION to have this formally discussed at this Sundays board meeting and policy to be SET IN STONE to quash any questions anyone may have about our classifier policies. If you have an opinion, please bring it there, and do not slander or defame the club in this forum. I do not make a practice of slamming clubs in public, as I feel there is no place for it. Constructive criticism is one thing, but this has gone a bit far. There are civilized ways to bring about change. Let's do so...shall we? And Ryan, nobody said or even meant to imply that you were cheap. I was only trying to illustrate that we did not "rob" you of any money, as was implied in one of the above posts. Let's try to work together and not just try to pick a fight. This sport is supposed to be fun...remember? Barrettone

Usually, Our club (Where Ryan shot 99-8) does not allow re-shoots of classifiers (due to time constraints-we sometimes get upwards of 80 shooters ). Mr. Hall shot on a day when we had a new match director. The new MD errored on the side of caution, and allowed the re-shoot figuring that he could confer with a higher authority on the matter later. However, unknowingly, the MD opened up a Pandoras Box, which, unfortunately led to the chain of events here. No malice was intended, and after discussing it with John Amidon (the ULTIMATE authority on the matter), it was decided that we should submit the score as a gesture of good faith. Keepin mind, that NO MONEY was taken from Ryan before the determination was made, and therefore, we did not HAVE TO submit it, but he is a junior shooter, and we wish to promote our sport, so we have told Ryan that if he pays for the re-shoot, we will submit it (as per John Amidons opinion) read below: In a message dated 2/26/2004 9:48:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, jlafave@mich.com writes: He shot the same gun, at the same classifier, and wants the second score to count for USPSA. Isn't this grandstanding? The BOD had voted several years ago that it was OK for competitors to shoot classifiers multible times and send them all in, the system will only take the highest hit factor, he should pay for the reshoots though. John Unfortunately, it takes time to get a determination, and a lot was posted here before I could get the ruling. It seems everybody "jumped the gun" a little on this one. We are sorry for the confusion, but in the same manner that we indoctrinate new shooters, we must allow MD's the opportunity to learn (and make mistakes) as well. The MD felt he did the right thing, but actually, by thinking he was covering himself, he took himself past the point of no return. Now we have all learned something new!!! Ryan, we hope there are no hard feelings and we hope to see you at the next match. Jeff LaFave Vice President Livingston Gun Club

Well Fellas, I might as well put my 2 lincolns in here. As far as I see it, we have three major problems when it comes to my club. Some of this has already been alleviated to in previous posts, but oh well, here goes: First, we run under USPSA, and our scoring program (EZWINSCORE) would play hell with getting results, and if you think we're going to handscore, yer crazy. USPSA already took on a tactical division, and getting them to create another would be a herculean (or HE-Man?) type of task. If we want our sanctioning, we've gotta adhere to the rules. Three gun has become rogue enough with using illegal targets (ie bowling pins, non-conforming plates, illegal course design, etc...), without adding an entire DIVISION on a whim. Sorry, but these are the rules we live and die by, if you want it changed, get it in the rule book...good luck. Second, buckshot IS harder on steel (respect given to Kurt, of course). You are hitting it 4-9 times as much as a single pistol would, but more importantly, the steel slams down so much more violently (cool to watch, but popper fixin' is NO FUN) and this additional fatigue warps the plates significantly. Remember, not all clubs can afford rifle steel, and the jury is still out on the effects buckshot has on them over a pistol round. Third, buckshot is damned expensive. It's not like this sport is cheap to begin with, and even with reloading (if your lucky enough to have a press), is inherently costly. Newbies MIGHT be discouraged as some of these guns are entry level into 3-gun. Even current shooters who are on the brink of not being able to afford this sport as it is, would surely be priced out of the division (hell, the entry fee to these things is bad enough). In short, all this chat will not lead to uniformity, you have to get it in writing, come up with scoring procedures, and get EVERYBODY to adopt it. While I know that not everybody subjects themselves to USPSA's rules, they are at the forefront of the sport, and if you want these changes to be credible, I'm afraid you almost have to go through them to affect that change. This 3-Gun stuff is a blast, but going from match to match, and not knowing what rules we're playing by on a consistent basis really sucks. Again just my .02. I feel the heat of the flames a-comin'.... Respect to all, Jeff

Thanks Gary...Damn I need glasses!!! Jeff

Got any contact info for pinnacle? I need a 625 done also. Barrettone

Boy Howdy was that ever fun!!! Thanks a lot Pat for allowing us to help out with your "evaluation"...Man, am I ever in the wrong business. Let me get this straight...I get to shoot all these different guns, using THEIR ammo, and all I have to do is render an opinion??? Where do I sign?! I think we need to get GE on the horn and demo a couple of miniguns...Matter of fact, doesn't that Abrams need a onceover before our boys gotta use it in another theatre??? Keep me posted. Barrettone

Gentlemen...I beg to differ, but the way I read the rules, it makes no distinction on mag-fed shotguns for limited division. Could you please quote me a rule that mandates it as such...The rule I read says "speedloaders". Call me a gamer (or a hair-splitter), but I would arbitrate this in a heartbeat with the current wording, and I think I'd have an excellent shot (pun intended) at winning and keeping my $100...Sorry NROI. Anybody want to chime in on this? No disrespect to Neil, but I don't think when the rule was written, that they forsaw the day that we would have magazine-fed shotguns. A magazine does not a speedleading device necessarily make. This rule is ambiguous, and open to a lot of interpretation. Barrettone

John...Just for you, I'm going to mount a side-cart on er, so you can have a little fun too!!! LOL Jeff

Thanks for the flattery guys. We will do our best to live up to your expectations!!! We hope you can all get out to this match...We just keep uppin' the ante!!!! Regards, Jeff LaFave

Thats right!!! Pistol Caliber Carbine Championship. Talk about fun!!! Come gas 'em up and hose 'em down with your favorite PCC. This match is gonna be 300+ rounds and include a lot of motion and activated targets. If you like your action fast and furious, then this is the match for you!!! Check it out at livingstongunclub.org, or go to the area 5 website and click "Michigan" for details. Check us out...We've got it going on!!! Jeff LaFave

This match is going to be 8 Courses of Fire at a cost of $30 per shooter. It will be held on the last weekend of August. Check out our web page at livingstongunclub.org for details or go to Area 5's webpage and click "Michigan". It's gonna be a BLAST!!! Jeff LaFave

Here it is guys!!! We are going to have 15 courses of fire + chrono. It will be 300+ rounds, and have some pretty ingenious stages (total run 'n gun fun!!!). Go to livingstongunclub.org and click "Major Matches", or go to the area 5 website and click the "Michigan" heading for match info. Match applications will be posted on March 1st, and will be in the next issue of Frontsight. This match will have as many stages as most nationals matches do, and will be at a cost of only $125!!! It will include a polo shirt, and paybacks with only 150 slots available. Dates are July 8,9 for match staff and 10, 11 for everyone else. Regards, Jeff LaFave jlafave@mich.com Match Director A53G