Jim Norman
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Posts posted by Jim Norman
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Eric, Thank you for the history. I appreciate it. My intent was to describe,albeit poorly what one used to find at matches as opposed to what many matches today are like.
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3-Gun USED to be a lot more physical. You also did not have a lot of the 'Go-Fast' gear we see today. Shotguns were loaded off side-saddles and out of bandoleers and loop chest rigs, Rifle mags were carried in canvas pouches, Pistol holsters were not as slick as they are today,. The stages were most often 'Scenario' based, there was a narrative to the stage, something had occurred and you were tasked to solve the situation. Maybe a hostage rescue or an attack. You vaulted walls, swung on ropes, shot and crawled under buses, cleared rooms and vehicles. You have to ID your friendly and shoot targets by a 20 second look at a series of photos. Often you had to carry all your gear on the stage, you re-holstered HOT, you transitioned between Pistol and Rifle or shotgun and then back.
Then we started to see the Kydex gear, mag pouched, holsters and shot shell carriers. Some guys learned to grab 4 shells and feed them into the bottom of their SGs, Shotguns went from 18-20" with the tube the same length as the barrel to how long can I make it work. Rifles went from Iron and 1-4 scopes to 1-8s and who bothers with iron as the targets got smaller and smaller.
Nowadays we have penalty targets, not hostages and shoot targets, not 'Bad Guys', we don;t very often see a scenario, we are told there are 10paper and 8 steel, We get to walk the stages and plan our route. Used to be you got one walk through, maybe. We did often have dedicated range staff so that you could do semi-surprise stages. much harder if the whole squad has to set the stage up.
I was never fortunate enough to be able to shoot the old SOF matches. I started out with the Carolina Tactical run by Kyle Lamb and the NC Recon by Dennis Heath as well as some others run by Mike Oberman. The new matches are often USPSA with three guns. FNH is a good example of what a modern 3-Gun can be. THe stages offer you a choice of ways to shoot, yes they are 'GO-Fast' oriented in that you better have all the new low drag high speed gear and be able to use it if you want to place high. But you are usually given a choice of firearms to use against different arrays. No, we don't have scenarios but we do see natural terrain and we do have physical challenges there. The same goes for the TarHeel Series and some others. 3-Gun, like most other things in life evolves. The good mutations will continue and grow, the bad choices will usually die out.Now, all this said, I am sure that there are a heck of a lot of others here that have a lot more to add and I am also sure that there will be a number of holes poked into some of what I've written down. I have less experience than many and more than some.
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FIT!
The Number one thing you will need to advance in SG sports is FIT. If the Gun Don't Fit, Don't Buy It!
My entry into an O/U was a friends Ruger. Shot it once for fun, Yeah, I want one. It was on my list, Ruger was inexpensive. So, I started shopping, Quickly found out that the Ruger didn't FIT. Just could not bring it up clean, so I started down the racks of guns at the local SGS. Finally wound up with a Browning XS Special 30". Would this be the gun for you? No idea. I know that being a bit adjustable I am finding out that what I THOUGHT was right has changed and I am resetting the comb height and cast to get it right.What I am saying is don't jump in becasue any of here tout a particular gun or you read some where that this is the be-all and end-all of SGs. Ask around, try different guns, at the very least pick up and shoulder every gun you can, preferable in your shooting vest and shirt. It is far cheaper to spend more once than to spend less twice. And by the way, You don not NEED a $40,000 SG to compete in Trap, Skeet of SC. You need to have a gun that fits, works and then spend the lion's share of your money on ammo and SHOOT.
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One other thing that really helps. We paint one end of all of our target sticks. That end goes in the stand, 'NEVER STAPLE THE PAINTED END OF THE STICK' Sounds corny but once you have tried to unwedge a stick festooned with half a box of staples out of a target stand, you understand. Oh, and on occasion it really doesn't hurt to pull out some of the mass of staples from the sticks. They start to look like a Mongolian war club!
Additionally, when your club goes to buy or build target stands, make sure there is a drain hole in the pocket which holds the stick. Wood likes to swell when it gets wet. Trying to pull stuck sticks out of target stands is an exercise in frustration.
Our stand design has the entire bottom of the pocket open. Cost is minimal, 6 feet of 1 or 1-1/4" angle and two pieces of 1 x 2 rectangular tube 4" long, 3/32 or 1/8" wall and two washers. takes about 3 -4 minutes to weld up. We hold the tubes in 1/8" from the outer edge so that they can stack easily. I'll try to post a photo in the next few days.
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Understood about the shell catchers. At issue really is that the three disciplines really use three different guns. Trap, a single with a high rib, longer barrel, Skeet, Double, shorter barrels to accommodate swing. SC a double and a length between trap and skeet. Biggest thing in SC is that you can have two different chokes, a really nice feature since SC may have a close and long shot on the same COF.
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For SC, Trap and Skeet a O/U is the way to go. two chokes, and you get your hulls back to reload. It is considered bad form to eject shells into the guy next to you in Trap.
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My personal take is, what do you do with it? What do you need to have to do what you do?
3-Gun? 8X is getting up there in price and weight. Most targets are under 200 yards, a few are out to 300 or so and there are a couple that MAY be over 400 out to maybe 500. a couple years ago a 4X was the hot ticket, there were a few decent 6X. Now everyone seems to run a 6X and we are starting to see 8X. Will this precipitate a move by the MDs to extend the range out to 700 yards? Where will it stop? Will in 10 years we all need a .338 Lapua in an Accuracy International chassis to engage 3-Guntaragets at 1000 -2000 yards?
Hey, I get it, I am OLD and I don't see what I used to. Gone are the days I could hit a 10" plate at 330 yards with Irons. I can't see them without a scope! But seriously, where will it end? Will we have electronics added to allow us to dial in the wind and elevations, then have the rifle fire at the optimum target presentation?
OK, Here's the real rub, I don't want to spend $1,800.00 on a scope just now.
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What is this match? Well here is what it is. So many folks we run into have said...man I would have loved to be able to shoot the old SOF match. Well here is your chance. This is an exact S.O.F. style match put on by the same guys who did the last one, with almost the exact rule set......in other words you get a chance to shoot one!
Some ding dong on another forum stated that "these old farts really resist change". He completely misses the point of the match. It is for all the folks who really wanted to shoot one, now have the chance to really shoot one so they can see what it was really like with the gear and firearms rules of the match at that time.
BTW docmedic a 20" barreled JP CTR-02 with a TA-11 Trijicon scope, and Harris bi-pod and a nylon ching sling makes weight.
The rule about muzzle breaks 1"X3" was indeed a S.O.F. legal rule changed around 1998 due to the assault weapons ban of 1994. I was the one who made the ruling on 3" from the crown of the barrel forward, instead of over all length.
Even those of us that never were able to go to SOF miss this format. Our earlier matches were run pretty much this way and most of the mathces up until about 6-8 years ago at least attempted to maintain this. now it's all 'run-n-gun' style just about. Gear that would not last a day if you had to crawl 50 yards or jump over a low wall, etc.
If I read the last part correctly our modern muzzle breaks on our rifles will be allowed? I have a Black Rain comp on my heavy metal gun, 1"Dia and 3" long, certainly not the old JP Tank Brake, would my BRO brake be allowed?
I can dream I can make it to this match. Too far to drive alone and I really HATE to fly.
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Rules. RO's. Classification, Affiliation with a national organization can/does have an effect on your insurance and alos on whether or not you might even be allowed to run a match.
Hi there Mr. range owner, me and couple o' my buds want to hold a runnin and gunnin match on yer range. We made up siome sort o decent, we think, rules and we got a couple good ol' boys what are gona enforce them and keep everone from doin anythin bad on yer range. (OK, the foregoing is more than a little tongue in cheek an dis meant to be mildly offensive. And on occasion, yeah, I sorta kinda fit the mold myself)
As opposed to
Hi, I would like to run a sanctioned USPSA match, we have a nationally in fact internationally recognized set of rules and we have ROs trained by the organization.
As for the other comment that NRA Membership is a requirement to belong to a club, that has a definite advantage, a 100% NRA club qualifies for insurance at decent rates.
If you approached me, I know which one would get a shot at using my range.
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Currently there is little or no perceived value for the regular shooter to be a USPSA member. I define a regular shooter as someone who does not travel beyond the local clubs, does not care if they are classified, they are just there to shoot. We (IA09) ran and reported/paid 31 USPSA matches in the 2015 shooting season. (according to HQ this is a big number in comparison to other clubs??) I just finished up our club championship and about a third of our shooters fall into the regular shooter category.
What value does a USPSA membership bring to the regular shooter?
What is there to convince them they need to join? (aside from peer pressure)
There has been a lot of talk about growing USPSA membership. This one third represents the low hanging fruit. They already attend matches we just need to up the value proposition on USPSA membership to push them over the edge.
A separate question is why should a club choose to affiliate, or continue it's affiliation, with the USPSA? Our section has lost one club already in 2015 and most likely lose another. Both clubs still run matches they could not justify the expense of affiliation and activity fees. Is this a common trend else where? If so how do we change this?
To grow USPSA potential members and clubs need to see some value for their time and money. What is USPSA's product and is it worth the money?
Scott Arnburg
Interesting. Affiliation is $50 a year for the club and Monthly match fees come out of the shooter's pocket. What do you charge for a match and what does the shooter get?
in the Mid-Atlantic Section we have a fee schedule across all the clubs. $25 for non-members, $20 for members and clubs are allowed to discount to their own members. We also have a prize schedule; $30 for Division (5 required) $20 for first in Class (3 required), $12 for 2nd (8 required and $8 for 3rd, (15 required) So if you are unclassified, you can only win the division so there is an incentive. For your match fee you get 6-8 stages at most of the clubs, a couple smaller clubs do run 4. our monthly matches run between 40 and over 100 shooters.
Our regular shooters are generally members of USPSA. FOr one, if they aren't then they are 'New' shooters. A classification is like a passport, you go to a new club and you have credibility, you are a know factor. You show up with all the gear, and a non-member, we don't know if you know what you are doing. Granted being classified doesn't guarantee anything, but it is at least a bit of an indicator that you probably have been exposed to the rules and you are not a brand new shooter runnin and gunnin for the first time!
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you don't squad? I cannot imagine a match where we wander from stage to stage without some regimentation. We don't squad in the Nooks, keeps the squads form having to flip pages, we have a nook per stage, it stays on the stage and the shooters are pulled from the ALL SHOOTERS list.
Seriously, how does one get a walk-though? How does one know where to start and finish? Don't you wind up with 20 people all wanting to shoot stage 3 and on one on stages 2 & 4? (as an example)
I cannot imagine the confusion that would have ensued Sunday with 7 stages and 73 shooters if we just told them, head out and shoot where you want. Do you have dedicated ROs?
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I have pocket router I use to sync the Nooks to the IPad and visa-versa.
This is one of the most informative subject/thread/discussion groups on Enos. Generally accurate and timely information delivered in a language that almost anyone can understand. Instantly useful.
My biggest issue anymore is that some people think that they can just make edits without letting me know upfront. We tell them, any changes, A) See me,
write them on the squad list, C) DON'T MAKE THEM YOURSELF.I would like to issue everyone a paper back-up sheet, just in case, but we've gone that route and I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of people that have taken advantage of them since way back when we started using the Palm Scoring System.
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Check with Daniel. I had to withdraw do to schedule issues so I know there is at least one open slot. There was however I am told a Wait List.
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I believe that I am using the two most current and up to date versions for Ipad and Nook. The issue I had Sunday had to do with not having the most up to date Ipad version loaded. Things seem to be up to date and running well now.
I will be running another match in early December. If I have issues and I think we are pretty much up to date so I think I'll be good to go, I'll get in touch.
We don't have WiFI on the range. I am thinking of setting up a router and repeaters to have a local network so I can up date the master regularly, but so far I've not had an issue. Might be, at least in our case, a solution looking for a problem.
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I upgraded to 1.669 and after correcting the division names all is good.
Ran 7 stages yesterday on the nooks updated to 1.3.6. No issues. Synced to the Ipad no issues except as noted above and that was solved by the latest update to the Ipad.
As a side note, we are running two non-offical divisions at our monthly match, Pistol Caliber Carbine, Optic and Iron. They also post just fine to our web. Great job guys!
I can't believe a got a response back late on Sunday night. Just think if every business treated their customers this way!
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Still an issue. I synced my phone (android) ti mt ipad to try to update classifications. No good,all x's or u's
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Thank you for quick response.
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I'd like to see the rules. Just want to know what one can do and what will make for a short day besides any of the obvious.
Scoring and penalties also are good to know so you can plan your strategy.
As for Divisions, HM can be a .308, a .45 SS and a 12Ga. But have two, HMO and HMI, let HMI run a pup, but HMO can run Auto. Why? Because a lot of us need the scope to see the long targets and once we allow a scope an Auto isn't really the game changer and just about every one owns one that is ready for Competition.
That all said, I am waiting on the 2nd email with the invoice.
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This is the link to the FB3G match page: http://fortbenningmultigun.com/
Not sure if it will give you the info you are looking for. It appears to have some fairly concise lists of local places. Hotels, Eateries and the like.
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Squadding is linked off your personal page from the match sent to you by practiscore.
Steve, I am very much looking forward to this match. If I have to cancel it will be very hard for me to do so. I was fortunate enough to get to shoot three of the original FB3G matches, the final three. At that point we were expecting the match to continue, I had actually booked space ahead and scheduled my days when the match was canceled. I really want to go again and if I can't I know I'll be kicking myself. Sometimes life just gets in the way.
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It still seems strange to me that this close there are so many open slots in squadding if the match is full. Unfortunately I am facing the possibility of having to withdraw due to business issues. Not firmed up yet, but I will know before Thanksgiving. I will really hate it if I have to drop out. All I can do then is hope that there will be a 2016 match.
Anyway, how about squadding up if you've signed up. Like to know how is going.
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Have you met Vlad? That is an image I don't need! Vlad in drag with a wardrobe malfunction!
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The only issue I have had so far is due entirely to me. I have found that is I don't make sure I get the 2nd or 4th shell fully inserted into the tube and past the catches, it can and has popped out giving me a premature 'Ghost Load'. This sucks as it precludes you loading additional shells until you shoot one out. I know what I do, I just need to practice to keep from doing it again. Of course, in practice it is unlikely to happen, no pressure.
Great gun and fantastic work and value. If I could I'd buy a second one just because. I can have two Stoegers for one tricked out Benelli. From a competition point of view, I do not feel at any disadvantage.
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I can't agree OR disagree entirely with 3GunWoody.
My take is we DO need to show what 3Gun is like for the majority of shooters. It is FNH, SM3G, NCRecon, TarHeel and some others, It is also your local 4-5 stage club match AND it is a few 'Carnival' made for TV sideshows.
What we do need, at least in my opinion, is a coherent and cohesive rule set along with ROs, CROs, MDs and RMs that know what should be done and how to do it. We need to KNOW that doing X is a DQable offense for EVERY SHOOTER. we need to know that a penalty on a rifle target at 100 yards is x and at 300 yards is 3x. We need to know that our particular toy set that we used at the super zoomy 3Gun in Tac-Optic is legal at the Me Tarzan 3Gun.
Safety rules of course need to be carved in stone and enforced otherwise we won't need a rule set, we'll be shut out and shut down.
Now, with in the above there is ample room for just about any length of stage, number of rounds or shooter or physical challenge. You can have trooper class where the competitors must carry it all, all the time and sleep on the range and you can have Open class where you can bring along your masseuse and everything in between.A 'Governing Body' can be a very good thing. You present yourself to the club management or a property owner with Hey, we'd like to run this 3gun run and gun super fast super zoomy match. We sort a kinda got a rule set and we know what we are doing. VS We are affiliated with the US3GSA (United States 3-Gun Shooters Association. They sanction our matches, we have a fully vetted set of safety and competition rules that are recognized across the country. Heck the Governing Body MIGHT even be able to obtain match organizers event insurance! Which do we think might be better received?
write them on the squad list, C) DON'T MAKE THEM YOURSELF.
Jm pro vs m3k
in Shotgun - Technical
Posted
Here is what I have seen. And first off let me state, I am NOT a sponsored shooter. I bought my Stoeger directly from MOA. It arrived with all the work done for under $1000. A Benelli sent to C-Rum will set you back between $1600 and $1900 depending upon your initial cost and what you want done.
Now, is a Benelli worth the $$? Frankly I don't know. I have a number of friends with them and it NOT the gun that beats me or them, it is how well we load, aim and plan a stage. I have seen the Benellis chug and I have had 4 instances with my M3k which I believe were entirely my fault. The M3k is accurate, it cycles 2-3/4 dram 1-1/8 ounce loads. I have had 2 issues with very low power slugs and two issues where I double fed as I was not used to teh way the gun works having come off 15+ years with an 11-87.
Will the M3k outlast a Benelli? I can't say. I can say that I can buy and have 2 M3k's for about the price of one Benelli or I can buy a crap load of ammo for practice which is where my matches go wrong, skill set needs improvement, not the tool set.
As for the JM Mossberg, I have seen more than a couple with issues at matches, but I've also seen people jam a Glock! So it is entirely possible that there was shooter fault, not gun fault.
If you get the chance to, take advantage and play with both. Not one or two shots, but a couple boxes, load it, shoot it fast, tray the fit.
Now, I will tell you where the M3k fails. It does not have a million dollar finish. I've decided that if needed, I'd just spray paint the thing if the finish really started to bother me. If you hold this gun next to your Benelli it does not have the same brilliant smoothness. So? I throw this gun into barrels and drop it on the dirt, crawl with it and essentially treat it pretty darn poorly. A scratch on the gun really doesn't enter into my mind with respect to a 3-gun gun.