Whoops!
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Posts posted by Whoops!
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On 9/6/2019 at 5:19 PM, Yondering said:
It's actually not complicated if we're looking at fatigue caused by case pressure - time doesn't contribute to fatigue. Fatigue is based on stress/strain level (resulting from pressure in this case) and number of cycles. We can load a steel part slowly or quickly and generate the same damage, as long as we're talking about fatigue and not elastic deformation or shock.
My professional career is in durability testing, mostly of metal parts and systems. When we generate cyclic loading in a part to test it, we can speed up the test by cycling faster at the same levels and still get the same result.
If we have a fast powder and a slow powder producing the same peak pressure, for the same number of shots, the fatigue damage is the same from each. However the fast powder load will obviously be slower. If we're looking at a fast powder and a slow powder producing the same velocity, the fast powder will hit higher peak pressure, causing more fatigue damage. The area under the pressure curve affects bullet velocity, but does not affect fatigue on the steel slide (that is caused by pressure, recoil is a different thing). This is assuming that each pressure curve has only one peak, which is not always a correct assumption but works to understand this point.
If it’s not complicated, then get us the numbers so we know exactly what the difference is.
My predication is there won’t be much difference, even though some difference is to be expected.
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6 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:
Unfortunately this is not correct. chamber pressure pushes in ALL directions, including front to back, as i in trying to push the barrel forward from the breach face, this force is held by the locking lugs between the slide and barrel, most slide cracks I see are in the ejection port area most often on the right hand side where there is less material to hold this front to back force.
As stated - the majority of the chamber pressure is exerted on the barrel. Breech face wear occurs long before slide cracks in most open guns. The breech face wear is the evidence of the pressure applied against the slide when the round is initially fired. That initial force against the breech is not what is causing slides to crack in 9 major guns vs 38 super. If it were, manufacturers would put in lighter recoil springs to make slides last longer by allowing them to start moving and dissipating that initial force quicker.
This one is pretty straightforward. The slide will move and dissipate that force as it is exerted and there is much less of the overall pressure exerted on the breech to begin with because of the surface area of high pressure brass exposed to the slide versus the barrel.
Not only that, the slower powders will exert more force on the breech than the faster powders while the slide is locked up.
It’s going to get very complicated if we look at fatigue points of the slide with a greater pressure for a shorter period of time than a lesser pressure for a longer period of time. But, I believe that once the calculations are done, you will see very little change in breech or slide fatigue from that initial force with fast versus slow powders operating at the same energy levels.
The barrel will not move in the direction of the force vectors applied to it and it takes the majority of the pressure by encasing the ammo’s expansion chamber to begin with. The slide also has the benefit of the back of the case which will essentially act as a brass recoil buffer.
So, when does the slide want to crack?
When it impacts the rear of the frame.
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I see a lot of people thinking 9 major is cracking more slides than 38 super because of chamber pressure.
Why?
Chamber pressure is exerted mostly on the barrel (the chamber, ironically). Slower powders exert more total pressure even though the pressure peak is higher with faster powders. So, slower powders may wear out barrel and slide lugs faster and still not do what people are intending - preserve the slide.
The main difference that I believe people are looking for is that slower powders tend to exert more pressure on the comp, potentially slowing down the timing of the slide and forcing it to move slower in open guns.
38 super exerts even more pressure on the comp, slowing down the slide further.
What we should really be looking for as a culprit for slide cracking in 9 major is slide speed.
So, what are some things we could do to counter act slide cracking/speed in 9 major?
Not mill so much off the slide, obviously, but this is less practical since we still want optimal performace.
Or even better:
Use a larger comp (It doesn’t have to be heavier, just have more surface area - remember, 9 major exerts less pressure on the comp, so the gun unlocks sooner and the slide moves faster - as a result of the lower comp pressure, we could use less material thickness in order to keep the comp the same weight and trade off some long term comp durability for some long term slide durability, a fair trade for many people with cracked slides)
If I were a gunsmith, I would offer a 9 major comp specifically with larger expansion chambers than 38 super.
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56 minutes ago, BJB said:
Yes, I have done this. It makes a very, very soft shooting load. Accuracy isn't the best but it's also not the worst. It's going to be dependent on your gun & a lighter recoil spring to have the gun function with the weaker loads. Use a fast burning powder.
380 bullets on 9mm hulls will also make a short OAL and this can sometimes lead to feeding issues. Berry's has a 100 gr 9mm HBRN which allows you to use the soft 380 load data but have a more normal OAL. This is what I currently use for these loads in place of the 380 projectiles I initially started playing around with.
(https://www.berrysmfg.com/item/bp-9mm-356-100gr-hbrn)
If you aren't wanting to mess around with getting a lighter recoil spring for these loads then just use your normal 115 gr or 124/5 gr 9mm loads and stick one of the 100 gr 9mm HBRN projectiles on top instead of a 380 projectile. It isn't quite as soft this way (with the factory recoil spring) but you'll find that it is still a tremendously soft shooting load. Then load a few at a time in increments downward till you lose gun functionality, but I would predict that with the standard recoil spring still installed you won't be able to work the ladder too far downward.
Thanks for the good info.
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I want to use .380 load data to make very weak 9mm loads.
Same bullet weight and powder, very deeply seated in a 9mm case. Has anyone tried it?
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Looks like the whole extruded vs billet thing was bumpkis.
Got this from Tanfoglio headquarters today:
we received your message and we thank you.No, the steel is the same.The difference is in the surface treatment: hard chroming in regular Gold Custom, gun coating in the Xtreme one.Then all the Xtreme parts.ThanksBest Regards / Cordiali Saluti
Customer Service -
I had a G45 open gun running for a week when I won B at a level III area match with it.
I had the fastest time of anyone on a single shot per target, 16 shot prop style stage.
I was in the top times for a short round count classifier type stage.
With some practice and effort, I realistically could pull a 90% with it.
I was running major with coated lead bullets, an off brand, fully supported, threaded barrel, and stock slide.
I was running Carver’s M&P major comp because I bought it on clearance and got it to fit after I cut off the guide rod loop.
I bought most things used or on clearance. My total investment, including the cost of the Holosun 510C, and the magazines, was approximately $900.
If you want a Glock open gun, get a Glock open gun.
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3 hours ago, Sc0 said:
I don't know much about Tanfo's but would doubt that the Xtreme versions use a different steel than production models... Internal parts and finish are different.
Yeah, I believe there’s more to it than what’s readily advertised and that’s why the Xtremes can cost over twice as much.
This is a long post about how Tanfoglio slides are extruded and finished:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/eaa-witness-still-cracking-or-improved.625113/
This is an article that says the Xtreme slides are billet and they use Lothar Walther barrels:
https://www.all4shooters.com/en/shooting/pistols/tanfoglio-xtreme-semiautomatic-pistols/
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On those notes, anyone know if the xtreme’s barrel is hand fit? I don’t know any gunsmiths in my area that I can trust to do a proper timing job on a barrel - DFW.
Also, I read an article which stated the xtreme slide and barrel are made out of a stronger metal than the standard. Another reason I’m considering the upgrade.
Thanks
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26 minutes ago, Sarge said:
Raise you $5
I will take the 165. What FFL should I ship this Raven .25 to?
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Is more expensive since they merged with Bass Pro?
Also, I just went in there to try to sell a gun worth at least $620 on their shelf.
They offered me $150.
I don’t think I’m going to go to Cabelas anymore.
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1. is the best choice
No doubt, you will see more of the best shooters using that setup at major matches than any of the others you listed and there is a reason.
Less flip.
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Whenever I see anything with round nosediving related to magazines, I immediately think adjust the feed lips.
And it’s always worked for me in the past.
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Hi, anyone using a regular Gold Team or an Xtreme Gold Team?
I’m looking to get another because of how well the platform does, but the last regular gold team I had destroyed the barrel lugs and slide after just a few thousand rounds.
Not sure if it was a timing issue because all of the lugs appeared to be wearing evenly.
This was about 10 years ago, so a lot has changed.
I’d rather just spend 1700 on a regular gold team if it will hold up better now. But if xtreme is the only way to go, I appreciate the info.
Thanks.
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12 hours ago, Scott Steele said:
They now have new machinery that allows faster lead times. So what ever gets ordered now will be less lead time.
Remember this company makes everything in house ie springs, barrels, slides, frames, magazines etc. and fits, tunes and test fires them.
Only thing they source out is the PVD finish.
Your number of reports of IBF, extractors and trigger parts needing replacement after 3k rounds is probably bad information being repeated by mouth at LGS.
If you’ve always wanted an Infinity maybe one day you’ll get one.
There are Infinity shooters putting 500 plus rounds a day through them. 500 rounds a weekend is an Average B shooter trying to make A with practice and level I matches.
I recently got to go to the Infinity factory and take a level I gunsmith course with Brandon and Casey and take a movement training course by Bill Drummond their factory shooter. It was very impressive operation.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Actually, the info for the parts breakage is on this forum. I’ve just been around a bit longer than you. Most of the parts issues were being reported about 8-10 years ago.
You obviously don’t know anything about USPSA classes and how to get them, so I have to doubt your mechanical know-how as well.
What new gee whiz machinery do they have and how much quicker is it than the old machinery for individual parts?
Industry secret? Lol . . .
It used to take them 12 months to get through their parts backlog because their mills and heat treatment were slow?
bulls#!t.
These are custom $5500+ guns that many people don’t even know exist and many more than that would never spend the money on.
When manufacturers want to be exclusive, it’s not unusual for them to limit the number of models being made to create exclusivity. When the order pool drops too much, they try to make sales more appealing through incentives. One easy incentive for exclusive manufacturers is reduced wait time.
Logical, aligns with current market conditions, talks like a duck, walks like a duck . . .
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Since you brought up the dead thread . . .
In my experience - Tanfo parts break regularly, even the barrel in the case of my Gold Custom.
CZ parts don’t. They just work, especially if you replace the slide stop at the appropriate interval.
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On 7/17/2019 at 12:54 PM, tha1000 said:
I saw what she said on facebook, but if it was that easy to flip a switch and go from 18 month lead time to 6 month lead time, I suspect they'd have done it years ago. Something has to change in terms of their current manufacturing process.
The most realistic explanation is that they just don’t have that many orders now. There is a lot of competition and most of the firearms market is oversold.
I remember there used to be a number of reports on their interchangeable breech faces, extractors, and trigger parts needing to be replaced after about 3,000 rounds. Did they get those issues figured out? I’ve always wanted an Infinity, but it’s not unusual for me to blow through 500 rounds in a weekend.
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The 510C is just amazing in my book. A $208 solar supplemented optic with a titanium hood and the biggest quality window on the market.
It doesn’t matter if you dryfire 24/7, there is always going to be a weak hand, under the table on a pogo stick stage where you thank Jesus you have a large window.
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This does remind me of something . . . due to an inability to tune Glock mags, you will likely need to run at least a 10 or 11 pound recoil spring. That will not hurt your score though, it's about the same weight Grauffel used to run in his Tanfoglio open gun.
With this in mind, it is still MUCH easier to get a Glock open gun to run than to get a 2011 open gun to run.
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Let me clear up the thread a little.
While the extractor and mag tension may contribute to these jams depending on how the gun is setup, the main culprit is the ejector. The brass is ejecting erratically and sometimes not clearing the scope mount prior to getting outside the range of motion of the slide.
It is usually an easy fix. File the front of the ejector at an angle to where it consistently ejects the brass to about the 2:30 position when viewed from behind the gun. This is usually with the angle coming to a point on the face of the ejector anywhere from 1/3 of the way to 1/2 way down the face of the stock ejector.
A side mounted scope mount will mostly fix the issue. However, even with that you may still have one brass that doesn't clear the slide every 300 - 500 rounds. It's a great feeling to see every piece of brass ejecting with almost the exact same arc out of the gun. The perfect extractor tension helps this, but a lot of it goes straight back to the point you make on the front of the ejector.
Btw, Brazos made an article on ejector tuning a long time ago and posted it online. You may be able to find it if you're into digging through old web archives. He included pictures, which I can't do right now.
Also, STI will never tune your ejector perfectly (as far as I know), they will just use their factory parts until they work well enough together.
I'm in Dallas if anyone ever needs help with any of this.
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Do I need to name the pro shooters who have forfeited matches because their Akai Custom Guns stopped working?
Many, dare I say MOST pro shooters have identically setup backup guns and even those sometimes fail, with the majority of them in open division in this sport being 2011s. Back when I talked to KC while he was still on Team Glock, he had no problems supporting Glock. His performance also had no problem supporting Glock and SJC. He doesn't run Glock anymore because he is no longer on Team Glock.
What I'm telling you, 3gundq, is that one of the best pro shooters in the world was STILL one of the best while shooting a Glock in open. Even though I don't shoot Glocks regularly, I have never had a problem with them when I did, including while setup for open (in fact, it ran way better out of the box then any factory 2011 you can buy today; all of them require at least ejector and mag tuning). Hell, I fed an M&P a steady diet of 180+ pf HS6 loads and never had a problem with a Stormlake barrel. I have had much better experience with the Glock platform than the M&P platform.
For sure, a properly setup Glock open gun is not a handicap.
That being said, the one platform I will never recommend to anyone but a pro shooter with factory support is the Gold Custom Tanfoglio. It's the only expensive gun I've ever had that chews up its barrel like it's pot metal. If you talk to Grauffel on a good day, he might tell you that he needs a new barrel something like every 2 to 3 thousand rounds. Some people claim it's a timing issue. I've seen Gold Customs where all 3 lugs seem to be peening evenly. IMHO, it's a metallurgy issue.
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KC Eusebio is better than everyone who just posted on this topic and has won multiple matches with a Glock open gun.
I have shot all breeds of open guns. As long as it has a good comp, load, and thumb rest, it will be just as competitive as 95% of the competition. Add porting for that other 5%.
No question, SJC for the comp and most of the parts. KKM is a great choice for the barrel. With a fully supported, quality KKM barrel, the wear on the platform will be no different than a .40 Glock at similar power factory.
You may as well put on the 9 major comp SJC makes, that's what Eusebio used.
The Vortex Venom red dot is the best slide mounted red dot Ive ever used. The Fastfire, Doctor, and even Trijicon I used all broke in fairly short order and the Venom has a great viewing window.
The Glock will NOT hold you back at all.
If you could put an open Glock in the top shooter's hands, he would still be a top shooter.
Here's a pic of KC's preferred setup before he got bought by ZEV.
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The Franklin Armory BFSIII works incredibly well in my PSA AR-9. Mil-Spec hammer shape.
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Last week I bought a GII Bull with the intention of turning it into a very interesting custom build. I've read good things about the Bull's accuracy and the BCG, from the factory, is within spitting distance of a Low Mass BCG from JP Precision for the AR-10.
I was excited to receive the GII and promptly took it to the range. I was very impressed with how similar it's profile was to an AR-15. Prior to this point I had read many instances where DPMS .308s showed cratered primers. The other DPMS .308 I had did not have this issue, but I was still leary enough due to all of the reports. The GII bull shot better than I had hoped for a factory 308 with no muzzle brake.
However, the 4 rounds I shot had severely cratered primers and ejector marks.
Ironically, I had read other reports that did not believe a headspace problem would cause these issues.
The gun easily chambered a no-go gauge under finger pressure. The gun is now travelling for warranty work on Remington's dime, which I am grateful for.
What I am not grateful for; however, is DPMS selling me a factory new gun that was more dangerous than any custom build I've ever shot.
The wait begins.
Tanfoglio Gold Team Durability Question
in Tanfoglio (EAA / IFG)
Posted
Time for an update.
I gave the regular Gold Team another shot. NIB.
A few differences from the old one I remember. One, trigger pull was heavier. About 4.5 to 5 pounds from factory.
Looks like a Unica sear. I’m guessing it’s fully hardened as a result of the way it was fitted at the factory (filed down past finish on hammer engagement leg). As a result, I smoothed it over. 2.5 pounds and much less post travel. Feels like a completely different trigger but the parts are stock.
After 2,000 rounds - trigger feels the same and there is zero wear on the slide and barrel lugs, I’m happy to report.
Another difference from the old one - comp contacts slide from factory. I e-mailed EAA and told them I was afraid to shoot it since the contact could cause the slide or comp to crack. They replied and said that is the normal way they fit it and there are no issues they are aware of.
We shall see.