dmshozer1
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http://idpaforum.yuku.com/topic/4586
Question: Regarding the use of steel targets in a stage: Pepper poppers, Reid Reactors, etc. When engaging targets from cover, in Tactical Priority, is a steel target considered to be engaged when the minimum number of shots has been fired at it, ie: 1; or does the shooter have to wait to see if it falls before exposing himself to the next target in priority?
Answer: Typically it (steel) is considered engaged when the required number of rounds has been fired at it. The steel has to fall to be scored a zero otherwise it would be 5 down and a failure to neutralize (if it is a Vickers stage). If it is not hit after the required number of rounds fired (usually one on steel) the competitor can move on.
There are some issues that a stage designer or MD needs to be aware of. One is a safety issue. For instance, if the steel is at the end of a hallway that the competitor has to advance down after engaging the steel, the MD needs to stipulate that the steel can only be engaged from a certain point. You do not want someone missing the first shot and then advancing on the steel and engaging from what may be an unsafe distance. The second is if the steel is used as an activator. The MD needs to make sure that the competitors are aware that the steel has to be downed to active something.
Thank you,
Robert Ray
International Defensive Pistol Association
Thanks Steve
I understand if you miss a PP,continue on with the COF, the penalty for that.
In my case, you have missed the PP, continued on, then went back to knock it down. What then?
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If a competitor fires at least one round at each PP while engaging them in the proper tactical priority, then a there is no penalty. Just as Joe stated, they have been engaged. It is no different than engaging a paper targets with two mikes or two -3's. The target has been engaged, but not neutralized. Do you typically wait to see the holes on a paper target? No, of course not. You call the shot and move on to the next target. Steel just happens to give you audible feedback when it has been hit or lack of audible feedback when missed.
That is my point exactly! you KNOW that you have missed the steel, so why would you not re-engage it before moving on?
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I agree,the rule book does say engage.But, in this game that we play called IDPA,we are supposed to be in a gun fight.
IDPA is all about using cover because the "bad guys", the targets, are shooting back at us! So if you know you have missed a "bad guy" piece of steel,I think I would make sure that guy was dead before I exposed myself to shoot the next target.
I wish the rule book would address this.
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In my opinion you should get a penalty.
When you shoot a paper target, you assume that you have neutralized it. When you miss a steel target and it does not fall,you know you have not neutralized it! If you continue on to the next target, you are exposing yourself to a threat you have not neutralized. That means to me you are not using cover.
I know this problem can be avoided by not placing the steel in that position but at our club ,we like to mix it up!
We go back and forth on this every time we do it.
Thanks for your opinion.
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At our club,when we mix steel with paper, the question of priority and penalty or not come up.
Example. Stage procedure calls for the shooter to engage from cover of wall,T1,PP1,PP2,and T2, in that order.
Shooter puts two rds. on T1,shoots at both PP's but does not knock them down,puts two on T2. Then goes back to knock down the two PP's they missed.
Should there be a penalty because the shooter exposed themselves to threats that they obviously did not neutralize?
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Slight drift. I have personally never attended an IDPA match. (Not much shot around here) But I have seen IDPA shooters come by and shoot at our USPSA match on occasion. Man what a different game! Hiding to reload and all that stuff! I am not making fun of IDPA or the shooters but it is almost comical to watch them shoot USPSA because of the totally different mindset.
If you want to see something really comical,watch a USPSA shooter spend most of there time at a IDPA match
picking dropped mags up and trying to store them. Now, that's funny!!!
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I would look into the reason why the glove helps you and see if you can't recreate that in some other way.
The gloves seem to pad the part of my hands that contact the back strap of the pistol and the bottom of the mag when I reload. OUCH!!!!
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I had carpal tunnel surgery on my wrists. Because of scar tissue, I now have PAIN in my hands when I shoot!
Wearing gloves helps. Is this legal in IDPA?
Thanks
As far as I know, it is not specifically called out as being illegal in the IDPA rule book. I have always been lead to believe that it is up to the individual club, it may be veiwed as a safety issue, or the MD. I would ask the MD. Some people may consider gloves to be a "competetive advantage". I don't think they are. When it was cold, I've worn "Mechanix" gloves to shoot. I think you should be fine since it is a medical issue.
Trust me! I would not wear them if I did not half to! I am having fits getting used to them!
But that's the way it is!
Thanks for the feed back.
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I had carpal tunnel surgery on my wrists. Because of scar tissue, I now have PAIN in my hands when I shoot!
Wearing gloves helps. Is this legal in IDPA?
Thanks
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You drop a mag during a course of fire. You pick it up and fire a shot before you store it. 3 second penalty!
You drop a mag,you pick it up and store it before you fire the next shot, no penalty! That is the way I remember it.
Page 39,IDPA rule book says if you "dislodge" a mag, 3 second penalty! Does that mean that even if you pick it up,
it is still a penalty? Sounds it.
I have a big match that I am going to be a S0 and I want to be sure!
Thanks
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Let's try to keep the focus on the OP's original questions of "What does your club do about DQs?" This is beginning to turn into a disagreement of opinion where every person defends their personal ideas while rejecting anything that disagrees with them - and that is not what these forums, and the IDPA Rules forum in particular, is about.
The only problem with that Duane is, the original question is flawed. There is no way we can answer that question. I have never seen a "club" hold a timer. Only individuals. I have never heard of, nor attended a meeting with other RO's on how "we" would collectively decide on, for a particular instance.
So in essense, this questions is a lot about "what you would do, as an RO."
I have been a RO or SO at many big matches, USPSA nationals,area matches and a lot of IDPA big matches.
Every morning before the match started,the RO's or SO's would meet to discuss how to handle things that may or may not happen, or to discuss things that had already happened just to be consistent with each other.
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Thank you for giving me the answer I wanted to hear!
AS a long time RO and SO,it has always been my policy to enforce safety rules.
When I give the safety course, I make it very clear the rules have to be enforced
because of the nature of the game.
At our next club meeting,I will refer the members to this thread. I think that will
clear the air on what to do about new shooter DQ's.
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We are trying to attract new shooters.
A discussion came up about DQing a first time shooter.
The feeling was that if we DQ the person, they might not come back.
I give the safety course to new shooters.I explain right up front that
the safety rules will be enforced!
What are your feelings?
Thanks
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Talked to the guy , I think his name is Craig, who is involved with the cadet program.
He told me it would be in October. That was the only time they could use the range.
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I know precisely one G35 minor shooter.
124/147 9mm loads aresufficently soft enough that most of us don't see the point in paying significantly more for .40 bullets... and waiting all day for the slide to cycle.
Oh, I don't think there's enough reason to change, but plenty of folks may want to stick with one gun/cartridge, and for them it makes sense.
Yeah...on the slide cycling time, if you can tell the difference from .06 to .062 you should start winning some championships soon
G-Man,
Just because you cannot tell the difference in slide speed, doesn't mean that MemphisMechanic can't.
Oops, I forgot, you know everything! Sorry!
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Where can I buy them?
Are the Winlight low recoil slugs the same?
No....the Winlites are not the same. I found a guy that deals in LE ammo to get me my Ranger slugs by the case.
I used to get them from Ammunition To Go til I found him.
Thanks OO.
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Where can I buy them?
Are the Winlight low recoil slugs the same?
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Just get the Weaver!
At 3 power it is so much clearer than most low priced scopes, it actually looks better than they do at 4 power!
It is also very close to a true 1 power. Very important for fast shooting at close targets with a crosshair reticle!
Take care
Sorry, meant to say that the Weaver at 3 power, because it is very clear, looks better than most low cost scopes that have 4 power.
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Rob and I both shoot the Winchester Ranger LE slugs. They are 1oz. and 1200fps. They shoot great out of his Benelli and run it well and do the same in my SX3. We mail order cases at a time. We've tried others but these seem to be what has worked best for us for the best price as well. I also like the Federal TruBalls but they are a bit harder to get and a good bit more expensive for the same results as the Ranger slugs.
OO, Would you mind giving me the address to check out the Ranger slugs?
Thanks
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G-Man,
Sorry, I should have reviewed my response to you. I would change it to say, I have avoided most of the potential problems.
You do whatever you want.
I will continue to clean and maintain my guns. It has worked for me for the last 15 years.
Take care.
Of course we'll all do whatever we want, I'm just pointing out that the thing that you, and others, say cleaning guns will sovle doesn't really work out that way. Based off your comments it certainly hasn't worked that way for you.
I'd also submit that someone claiming to have avoided all manner or problems by identification during cleaning might consider buying better guns or better parts. Looking at a part and thinking it's "going to break" is silly. Except in extreme cases, where it's already started failing, this simply isn't an accurate indication of impending failure. Worn, seriously worn, parts can continue to work for tens of thousands of rounds, but that brand new part you replace it with can break immediately. I've been shooting guns since just a little bit shorter than I could walk and I haven't had that many parts break, and the vast majority didn't stop the gun, or were visible without needing to clean the gun or disassemble it. Not real hard to spot a cracked safety or cracked slide.
I clean my guns when they need it and I maintain them as needed. I also normally have the most reliable guns at any match or club...without question. Ask the people who shoot with me when I've had guns malfunction. Last time I asked that question to a large group, someone said "a year ago you had that magazine problem at a match"....yep, and it wasn't a gun problem, and they had to go back a year to remember a problem!
Guns simply don't "need" to be cleaned as often as people think they do. Proof is your statements above. I don't clean my guns all the time and have never had the problems you've had when cleaning yours more frequently. That's sort of interesting all by itself. Now, some could say all that cleaning could have led to more failures with yours, but I won't go that far.
I have one pistol I've been shooting since 1983 and was one of the first guns I shot in USPSA....hard to imagine this problem wouldn't have cropped up on me with that gun in the last 27 years if I was totally off base.
G-Man, Chill out! I have my opinion,you have yours.
Nuff said,
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G-Man,
Sorry, I should have reviewed my response to you. I would change it to say, I have avoided most of the potential problems.
You do whatever you want.
I will continue to clean and maintain my guns. It has worked for me for the last 15 years.
Take care.
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The truth is most of the modern thought about gun cleaning is based on what we did way back when....black powder and corrosive primers. Sure, back then you had to clean a gun to keep it reliable and to prevent rusting. With modern powders, primers and jacketed bullets, cleaning every use isn't necessary.
In fact, a squeakly clean gun can be less reliable than one that's in a reasonable state of fouling. How can that be? Well, if the gun is working properly when you stop shooting, the odds are incredibly high that it's going to go bang the next time you press the trigger. If you've taken the gun apart, cleaned it, and put it back together you have an unknown staring back at you. It'll probably go bang, but it might not. Yes, a function check is a good idea, but it's not foolproof. This is even more true if you've detail stripped the gun.....you sure you got that sear spring on there perfectly and the tension on the legs is still what it's supposed to be???? No way of knowing until you press the trigger for the first time.
For practical reasons I clean my duty/carry gun after I shoot it because I don't want to get my dress shirts and suits dirty. I have another duty gun that I normally only use at the range, for instructing, and it's been cleaned exactly once....after the first time I shot it, new out of the box.
If it makes you feel good...knock yourself out and clean your guns all the time. Just know that any advantage you think you're gaining is offset by an equal disadvantage (no free lunch). Personally, I won't take a gun to a major match that hasn't had at least a couple of mags run through it after a cleaning. R,
Because I clean my gun's often,I have avoided future problems by seeing worn or about to break parts.
I have also after shooting a match, taken the gun apart to find out that a part
had in fact, broken. Bummer way to start the first stage at the next match!
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I wasnt sure this was the best place for this thread, if not, please feel free to move where you see fit
So, I've read a few threads on here about cleaning vs not cleaning bores etc etc. (im sure some of them will be linked here later:))
I was always brought up with the mindset of always cleaning a gun before putting it away. Take care of your guns, your guns will take care of you (whoa, i just quoted my father there....). I work at a place that sells reloading and cleaning supplies-a lot of cleaning supplies to be exact. I brought up the idea to a few co-workers and also printed out that Scheumann barrel article (altho it was rather dated) about their recommendations about not cleaning barrels, etc. They were nearly as confused as I am.
I, being simple minded and altho around firearms most of my life still learning new things EVERY DAY, cannot for the love of God see why NOT cleaning your barrel is better than cleaning it out with a good lead/copper/moly/powder residue remover (insert favorite here-Hoppe's, Shooters Choice, Montana Extreme, Butch's Bore Shine, etc etc etc etc..... the list can go on forever).
Id like to see some opinions on the idea and especially if you are on the "nothing but bullets down the barrel" side of things. I'm not sure if im missing the boat here or what.
Thanks!!!!
C
Most of the people responding are more than likely using jacked or at least a plated type bullet.
Put lead bullets down the barrel like I do and trust me, you will be cleaning the gun and barrel!
I have tried all the known good barrels. Using all the known good lead bullets, they ALL leave
lead in the barrel that does not come out unless you brush the hell out of them!
Tried the put some jacked bullets down the bore after shooting lead. looked good! Checked it with
my friend's $900 dollar borescope. Lead was still in the barrel!
I will admit that the accuracy is still good with lead left in the barrel, but I worry about pressure
build up.
That's my story and I'am sticking to it!
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I have one of the Milletts, and 4 Weavers. I do not like the Millett and consider the money I spent on it a waste. The Weaver has MUCH better optics, imho. Using the Millett I feel restricted like I'm looking down a paper towel tube. Also, it has very critical eye relief, especially at 4x. There is very little movement allowed as to where you place your eye behind the scope. If you move your head, even a little, right to left or back and forth, you can lose the view through the scope. I don't consider that to be a good thing in a match when time is important.
There seem to be a lot of people who have, and like, their Milletts. That's fine and I wish them well, but I don't personally consider it anything more than a plinking scope. That Primary Arms looks just like the Millett too, so I'd be wary.
Listen to the man!
He speaks with a straight tongue!!!
What does your club do about steel
in IDPA Rules
Posted
But my point is,if you don't get that sight picture,you should shoot again.