Harry Potter

I've shot 17 and 34, even 17L, later rebuilt to an Open gun. I've tried 1911, 2011 clones, CZ, Sig and you know! Most rely on Glock and forgiving it's trigger pull caprice, which can be pretty nicely cutomized with Wolff competition spring pack. Wanna shoot, you'll never go wrong with Glock! Want to Pimp your Ride, get 1911 and become Richard Heinie. Shot over 50k of my Glock 17, and currently having 2 mulfunctions logged, just because of round (bad feeding) or primer damage. DVC

Guys! Maybe you are talking here of shooting Desert Eagle .50AE? or .44 Mag? IMO. If you have a proper grip by using all surface of the pistol, for example Glock 17.If you are giving not enough tension in the muscles, then sometimes pistols slips out of the support hand, but if it is equally shared between both hands and holding it at least as during a regular handshake is good enough to control the gun and fairly good enough to shoot at a high speed. But in answering Flex's question, the fact that the strong hand is behind the gun is exactly the reason it stays there. It's simply in a better position to accept both the push and flip components of recoil - even those of more powerful handguns. The support hand by contrast is trying to hang on around the front strap and it requires friction against the strong hand, the support side grip of the gun, or both in order to stay there. What I'm finding out though - and what I think both you and Rob have said in this thread - is that the support hand doesn't require an excess amount of grip in order to stay put. When I personally concentrate on making my grip and letting the gun do the rest, the support hand stays in place. If I try to strangle the gun with my support hand I tend to squirt the strong hand back since I don't have long enough fingers to apply a perfectly side-to-side grip (by getting the support hand thumb-meat in a position to press exactly to the fingers). Rather, as Rob said, I'm trying to pinch a wedge and I need additional friction with the gun and my strong hand to prevent the grip from coming apart. I think this is why so many thumbs-forward shooters use grip-tape and pro-grip. This is also why some shooters apply additional isometric tension in the form of a push-pull or (I think in Rob's case) a side-to-side pinch using the chest. Doesn't Ron Avery recommend this (side-to-side pressure from chest) for shooters who are having trouble keeping their hands together? By the way, during the draw I've started bringing the support hand all the way over to the strong hand side to meet the strong hand the moment the gun goes from down to forward. I've found this to be another AHA! experience for me as I can now consistently index my support hand onto the gun, resulting in a much better overall grip as I bring the gun out and into my line of sight. I was having trouble getting the hands to meet consistently in front of me prior to making this change. I'm sure my grip and draw will continue to evolve but for now this seems to be an additional hurdle that I can clear. Yep, friction is a good thing, especially when your grip style is not intended to squeeze a juice out the handgun... You know what I mean. But there is a flip side of that, because when you have a sweeping draw, you are often getting a bad grip and with a sand paper and special bells and whistles on it, it is hard to recover or slide in to correct. I am using a get grip by Eric Grauffel which is nice up to 30 Celsius, but over it becomes a sweaty mud what I have faced in a World Shoot Bali last year. That was the first time I have faced the issue we are discussing here. The draw with a support hand is close, but let's assume that you are shooting a stage with a placement of targets at 160 degrees wide and you want to have a single stance to engage 'em all and you are starting form left to right (being right hander)... What I found, that when in such position you are driving your support hand close up to the holster, it becomes a natural obstacle to have a smooth and fast draw and first target acquisition.

When I am facing the mental problems related to the anxiety and desire to get the GOLD, I am going with my thoughts to Bonsai. As it is a part of Zen Buddhism as a Zen is a part of Bonsai, I have a very nice picture of it, which reminds me, that a good idea is to be in harmony with nature and not obtrusive to it. So with the stage you are going to shoot. The traditional bonsai artists believe that the purpose of this arts miniature approach is to promote the shrinking of human foibles such as greed and self-centred thinking. These bad traits of man promote the unthinking destruction of all of nature according to the belief. For instance the branches stretch towards the sky seeking a richer thought process or enlightenment. That is how I am going to avoid the stress... I am always thinking possitive, when thinking about Bonsai and shooting itself, because possitivity is the main thing for me in shooting. The bonsai tree can sometimes live for hundreds of years if cared for correctly. They are a lovely, peaceful piece of art that can be given to your children, and this can be repeated for generations to come. I am not pretending to become the World's Bonsai Nr. 1, I would be happy just to be one of them...

Guys! Maybe you are talking here of shooting Desert Eagle .50AE? or .44 Mag? IMO. If you have a proper grip by using all surface of the pistol, for example Glock 17.If you are giving not enough tension in the muscles, then sometimes pistols slips out of the support hand, but if it is equally shared between both hands and holding it at least as during a regular handshake is good enough to control the gun and fairly good enough to shoot at a high speed.

I see many heavy lifters come through our academy who have trouble keeping their support hand on the gun. They can't understand why 5'9 170 me can keep a grip together, and 6'2 280 them cannot. The two most common things they are doing to cause this is are #1 having a too stiff or locked out support arm. The gun wants to move rearward, the support hand wants to stay in place. The gun wins. #2 They squeeze too hard with their support hand. The hand is barely in place before they even fire even under all that pressure, because it wants to slip to an area of lower pressure. The recoil just kicks off a hand that already wanted to move away. Look at your strong hand fingers on the gun. You will probably notice that the fingers make sort of a wedge shape, with the middle knuckles as the "point". Squeeze hard enough on both sides of a wedge and your hand will slip off of it. What I've found to keep the support hand on the gun is the just enough pressure applied with the bicep and pectoral muscles, pressing the heels of the hands together. To the non-believer linebacker, I sometimes show him by taking the gun, gripping it as usual but leaving my weak hand open with my fingers stretched out. I blast through a magazine, and at the end my weak hand is still in place, firmly against the gun and the heel of my strong hand. Finally when it comes to the grip, I strongly believe, that it is a matter of understanding, practice and experiments including anatomy of the shooter and shape of the pistol grip. Watched your video. Would be glad to shoot some IDPA which I have never tried to.

Draw itself is OK, just the sight picture and the second shot are as of a toy. Trigger pull is completely different. I quit practicing airsoft Glock and sold it. I found it could have make me a bad influence.

Hello Thomas, Thanks for the nice observations. That was the game between a classic and descried grip. I have to admit that I've noticed the inconsistent sight tracking, anther words not just correct up and down, since I have been shooting Limited division with a "*thumb rest [generic]*". I did exactly used it as a gas, not like a thumb rest, because I have been puting a pressure to it all the time and that way I was able to shoot faster. Front sight travel was like on the original AKMS (AK-47 version), when front sight tracked to 1300 hours. The biggest advantage I've noticed on the middle distance targets, where appeared you can "smoke", but then after scoring you are informed about D's or in worst way a "mike". As BE says in "Beyond Fundamentals", you can shoot as fast as you can see. Simply my answer is that I don't care much about the proper sight picture travel, as long as I can hit A's and faster that with a classic grip, which I am also using on the far distances and even when it is really close and you just shooting by body drive, I am using even a grip with the support hand's trigger finger on the trigger guard. Seems complicated and had to implement, but I already used to it and unconscious signals from the brain gives the commands to choose one or another grip for the next group of the targets, because I am trying to be open minded and observe as much as possible. I forgot to mention and I am sorry for that, discussion gets another shape, because I am shooting production Glock 17 and that needs a special approach, because Glock never forgives you any of minor mistakes done with 1911/2011 trigger pull. We are not allowed here to tune up the trigger job, so I use minus connector with original springs. That one on the picture is my air soft Glock for training, with which I have tried to work on the first shot after draw, but found it different than with the real gun and I gave up. And sight are different, because I use on my G17 .100 wide, lowest possible Dawsons which I found brilliant, just made of a bit soft steel and are very fragile for the hard use on duty for example. Dropped the gun ones and found the front sight completely deformed. Saulius DVC

Nothing personal, but as for non native English speaker some of the guys here using a terms of the very best of Friedreich Nietzsche, to explain, how to prepare a boiled eggs:) I would support the opinion that the good or maybe the best way is to shoot some bullets and observe what happens with the grip. Precision, fast shooting on close distances etc. It is not a panacea, to get a grip thumbs forward. Grip requires a special approach depending on anatomy of the shooter and pistol grip ergonomics. IMO the important point is to have a high grip and then personal preferences opening up the doors. The thing I found comfortable which works for me is a support hand trigger finger on the corner of the trigger guard. Sure it is great if the pistol has one:) It becomes a kind of an anchor for the pistol horizontal error elimination and influences the natural muzzle return to the primary position after shot has been called. There is no need even to put an extensive pressure to it, it works naturally. As a good point of reference is earlier this year met in CZ Extreme Angus Hobdell, who shoots incredibly fast with the trigger finger on the guard, but what I found that I am losing some firmity in the grip by eliminating that finger off the other grip fingers and trigger finger seems to me as a Nr. 1 finger in a pistol support. I've seen Adam Tyc (PD World champ), who has his finger right on the corner, tried it and found it really nice. Appears it is allowing him to have a better control of the sights while remaining the firm grip. I have tried it in live fire drills with far transitions and I found it saves some time for me and I can faster acquire the sight alignment. Here are some pictures for the clarity of what I mean: Hope it will help to find your own grip. Good luck. Saulius P.S. Sorry if some clarity missed because of my English

Here is my deal: Marine Magnum for 500 Euro and Express for 590 as it is shown on the picture, so I guess I'll go for Marine. Thanks a lot for your help.

Actually Marine cost less and Express comes with a single barrel. I guess that I should go for the Marine then, because everything else is in the sight and you can always can get used to it. +1 for Marine Magnum.

Got it. Please provide your argumentation of MM over EM for the 3 gun use?

Thanks Patrick, I used to shoot Winchester 1300 Defender on my first 2 gun and shotgun matches I have attended. I should say that I did like it. The action is smooth and I did like the feeling of opening itself after shot breaks. My experience is less possitive than yours, because I had some mulfs, with a shorter OAL and I did used to the thing, that production things must feed any type of ammo if it's not chinese:) Access to better choices means for me having an access itself and its a special thing for me, because I was born in the USSR and Lithuania has only 18 years of Independence and we already have a National association of the IPSC since 1997 and shooting it actively since 2000. My main discipline is a pistol and shotgun is just a Nr. 2. I don't want to invest in it too much and I want it to have a its soul, just like M1 Garand or an AK47. I don't care much about Benelli, because I can buy 3 rifles for the price of one shotgun. I gave a promise to myself that I am going to kill animal only when I will have to feed my family:), because I am shooting thousands of rounds every year on the IPSC matches and I have more passion to shoot a timed double A instead...

Thanks Trapr! Your input is greatly appreciated. I have been debating the whole 870 / Supernova decision. Threads like these help! I have an older 870 wingmaster in 20ga that I love (it was my grandfathers), but I am getting into the 3 gun matches and think I would like to move to a 12ga. Also, I don't want to abuse that gun in competitions... the sentimental value is just too much! I know if I end up going to a lot of 3 gun comps, I will eventually want to get a semi-auto, but for now I just want something to use for my first 3 gun matches and maybe trap/skeet The sentimantal thing I have is a captured Wehrmacht (nazi German army) officer's pistol, which my grandfather brought from the WWII and that is the thing I have tried and never shoot. I know what you mean. I would have the shotgun, the one like you do, I'd rather use it for home defense and part of home interior design.

Thanks Trapr! Your input is greatly appreciated.

Hi, To Bigbrowndog: I am an ex L.E./Military and thus I am more oriented on the hard way proven things. Benellis are really nice shotguns, but the prices of those in Europe are really high. If I would go for the Open/Unlimited division or Standard semi-auto, then I'd go for Benelli for sure. We don't have STD semi-auto here and I hate all the bells and whistles about the Open shotguns (red dot sights, reloaders etc.), that's why I'm looking for allrounder for home defence, hunting, competition shooting... Benelli Nova Pump is ok, but the price is double. To chefcs5: I get your point. Thanks a lot. Remington has a soul and spirit and Benelli for me is more new Generation. Rob Leatham said: "If you like the gun, probably you'll shoot better with it." Now the main question is still Express or Marine? Not too many arguments