Glock 17 9mm Minor 115FMJ Universal Clays

[Collateral]

I am shooting a box stock Glock 17. I am working up a new load with 115 FMJ, 4.5 grains of Universal Clays and a 1.15 OAL. I had a limited opportunity to chrono this ammo and was surprised when this only made a 117 power factor in my gun. My barrel length is shorter than my friend that I received the load data from. As I don't have a chrono I figured someone must have worked up this combo before.

I want to safely make minor with at least a 130 power factor. What changes will get me there? How much more powder? Would a change on OAL have an impact? The gun is pretty forgiving on OAL seating depth and will feed what I give it reliably.

Any feed back from Glock 17 owners would be most appreciated.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Collateral

[Jman]

Welcome to the forums!

I would start here http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

[mike4045]

I don't think you can do it safely. Might want to try Titegroup or 231. I am using titegroup for my 115 jhp loads. I was not able to get close to minor with my 34.

[Collateral]

Welcome to the forums!

I would start here http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

Thank you for the welcome. I have seen their data. From what the Hodgdon indicates I should already be there. Unfortunately that is not the case for my gun. I figure the answer lies somewhere 4.5 and 5 grains. I am less knowledgeable on the OAL. I do know that I have run all the way out to 1.155 without contacting the rifling.

Anyone running this in a Glock 17?

[mike4045]

I do shoot the same ammo in my 17/19. I just don't shoot them in matches. I load to about 1.145 oal.

If you try to go any hotter than recommended in the book make sure you look for signs of pressure. I know several shooters, including myself, who have blown up guns. If you get a strange pulse/feel of the gun, stop and inspect everything.

[Collateral]

I do shoot the same ammo in my 17/19. I just don't shoot them in matches. I load to about 1.145 oal.

If you try to go any hotter than recommended in the book make sure you look for signs of pressure. I know several shooters, including myself, who have blown up guns. If you get a strange pulse/feel of the gun, stop and inspect everything.

I must be missing something. I am only trying to achieve Minor. Sierra shows for a 115 1.10 OAL 5.0 grains running at 1150 fps, with a max load of 5.6 grains. The Sierra data seems pretty close to what I saw on my brief opportunity to chrono this ammo (117pf with 4.5 universal clays 115FMJ and 1.15 OAL). I estimate I would likely only have to run 1131 fps to equate to 130 pf. This is quite below a +P load would run, and the Glock 17 seems to handle those with ease. I likely only need to be a little hotter than standard factory ammo. I think 5.0 grains behind a 115 FMJ would do it. What am I missing?

[mike4045]

Max load on my chart puts it right at 125 pf. There is no margin for error. No cushion. I try to set it around 130 to 132 to be safe. I tried Clays and had flowing primers at 127 pf. Too close for my taste. My understanding is that Clays has a pretty severe spike in pressure when you pass max.

[Graham Smith]

This has come up several times before and a search will provide more than ample data, so let me just caution you to be VERY careful when discussing "Clays". There are three powders named Clays: Clays, Universal Clays, and International Clays. At least one of the three can spike pretty quickly. I'm pretty sure it's not plain Clays but I don't recall if it is Universal or International.

You are specifically asking about Universal, so make absolutely sure that any data you get from any source is for Universal and not just Clays.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Graham Smith

[Jman]

There are three powders named Clays: Clays, Universal Clays, and International Clays. At least one of the three can spike pretty quickly. I'm pretty sure it's not plain Clays but I don't recall if it is Universal or International.

International Clays is a shotgun propellant. Rarely (if ever) used in any pistol loads.

Universal Clays is a shotgun propellant. Used in some major PF .40 S&W loads. Increasing rare anywhere else.

Clays is a shotgun propellant. Used in many pistol calibers. Very popular in 9mm, .40 S&W and 45 ACP. This is the one that has a reputation of

spiking. But then, all propellants will bite bad if poor loading technique is used.

[Graham Smith]

I think it was International that I was thinking about. Here is the thread.

Never the less, the main point I wanted to make was to be sure which Clays someone was referring to.

[Jman]

the main point I wanted to make was to be sure which Clays someone was referring to.

Glad you did. It's a head scratcher to many new pistol caliber reloaders.

[scheirere]

I do shoot the same ammo in my 17/19. I just don't shoot them in matches. I load to about 1.145 oal.

If you try to go any hotter than recommended in the book make sure you look for signs of pressure. I know several shooters, including myself, who have blown up guns. If you get a strange pulse/feel of the gun, stop and inspect everything.

I must be missing something. I am only trying to achieve Minor. Sierra shows for a 115 1.10 OAL 5.0 grains running at 1150 fps, with a max load of 5.6 grains. The Sierra data seems pretty close to what I saw on my brief opportunity to chrono this ammo (117pf with 4.5 universal clays 115FMJ and 1.15 OAL). I estimate I would likely only have to run 1131 fps to equate to 130 pf. This is quite below a +P load would run, and the Glock 17 seems to handle those with ease. I likely only need to be a little hotter than standard factory ammo. I think 5.0 grains behind a 115 FMJ would do it. What am I missing?

Collateral,

The difference may be in the OAL. You mentioned that Sierra listed an OAL of 1.100". Your load was 1.150". That .050" could be the issue. It may be causing your load to run lower pressures and thus lower velocities. You have two options here. 1.) try moving the OAL back to the 1.100" as listed in the Sierra manual and re-test. 1.100" is a reasonable length and will not likely cause feeding or accuracy issues. 2.) gradually work up you load, looking for signs of excessive pressures. Go in .1 grain increments from 4.5 up to 5.0 grains and see what happens. Of course you will need a chrono for either option.

I've used Universal clays a lot, in both .40 major loads and 9mm minor loads. I've never seen it do anything funny when working up loads. Unfortunately I've never loaded 115 grain bullets for 9mm minor. I did run this load for a while: 124 gr. FMJ (copper) at 1.100" OAL, 4.0gr. Universal Clay with Winchester small pistol primers. Gave me a 130-131 pf load from a G17. With that in mind, I'd bet you can safely make a 130 pf with 115 gr. bullets and Universal Clays.

[Collateral]

I do shoot the same ammo in my 17/19. I just don't shoot them in matches. I load to about 1.145 oal.

If you try to go any hotter than recommended in the book make sure you look for signs of pressure. I know several shooters, including myself, who have blown up guns. If you get a strange pulse/feel of the gun, stop and inspect everything.

I must be missing something. I am only trying to achieve Minor. Sierra shows for a 115 1.10 OAL 5.0 grains running at 1150 fps, with a max load of 5.6 grains. The Sierra data seems pretty close to what I saw on my brief opportunity to chrono this ammo (117pf with 4.5 universal clays 115FMJ and 1.15 OAL). I estimate I would likely only have to run 1131 fps to equate to 130 pf. This is quite below a +P load would run, and the Glock 17 seems to handle those with ease. I likely only need to be a little hotter than standard factory ammo. I think 5.0 grains behind a 115 FMJ would do it. What am I missing?

Collateral,

The difference may be in the OAL. You mentioned that Sierra listed an OAL of 1.100". Your load was 1.150". That .050" could be the issue. It may be causing your load to run lower pressures and thus lower velocities. You have two options here. 1.) try moving the OAL back to the 1.100" as listed in the Sierra manual and re-test. 1.100" is a reasonable length and will not likely cause feeding or accuracy issues. 2.) gradually work up you load, looking for signs of excessive pressures. Go in .1 grain increments from 4.5 up to 5.0 grains and see what happens. Of course you will need a chrono for either option.

I've used Universal clays a lot, in both .40 major loads and 9mm minor loads. I've never seen it do anything funny when working up loads. Unfortunately I've never loaded 115 grain bullets for 9mm minor. I did run this load for a while: 124 gr. FMJ (copper) at 1.100" OAL, 4.0gr. Universal Clay with Winchester small pistol primers. Gave me a 130-131 pf load from a G17. With that in mind, I'd bet you can safely make a 130 pf with 115 gr. bullets and Universal Clays.

Just to clarify I am using "Hodgdon Universal Clays" not to be confused with "Clays" or "International Clays." I think this powder will safely reach minor, I will just work up slowly. The difficult part is I don't have a way of knowing when I am there with out a Chrono. I think for my next match I will shoot factory ammo and try to find access to a Chrono. I appreciate all of the comments.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Collateral

[Jman]

I think for my next match I will shoot factory ammo and try to find access to a Chrono.

Excellent idea.

The F1 Chrony is fine for a first chronograph by the way and can be had for under $90.00 in many places.

I use a COAL of 1.160 for the 125gr and 147gr bullets in my G17 (OEM barrel) with zero problems. YMMV.

Some bullet profiles prefer a slightly shorter seating depth.

Jim

[njl]

There are three powders named Clays: Clays, Universal Clays, and International Clays. At least one of the three can spike pretty quickly. I'm pretty sure it's not plain Clays but I don't recall if it is Universal or International.

International Clays is a shotgun propellant. Rarely (if ever) used in any pistol loads.

Universal Clays is a shotgun propellant. Used in some major PF .40 S&W loads. Increasing rare anywhere else.

Clays is a shotgun propellant. Used in many pistol calibers. Very popular in 9mm, .40 S&W and 45 ACP. This is the one that has a reputation of spiking. But then, all propellants will bite bad if poor loading technique is used.

Universal, as the name implies, is more than just a shotgun powder. It's commonly used for all sorts of pistol loads and I can't imagine he'd have any trouble getting safely above the minor threshold. My 9mm load is 4.3-4.4gr Universal Clays with a 124gr bullet and does right about 130pf. That's right at the bottom (minimum load) of the recommended powder charge.

[8ring]

Hello:

Here are my results with a 115gr Remington FMJ and 4.7gr Universal Clays.

Win Cases, Win SP Primers, OAL= 1.140, CZ 85 Combat, 70 degrees, two ten shot strings:

Low 1085 1126

High: 1181 1170

Av. 1144 1150

ES 95.3 43.6

SD 26.81 11.7

This is a lively round that has a fair amount of snap and recoil. It easily makes minor (the 1,085 fps round was an outlier. All others were at or above 1,125 fps.) On the plus side, Universal burns very clean in 9mm. My CZ 85 Combat has a 4 3/8" barrel that is somewhat "fast". You should be able to exceed minor PF with this load in your Glock. All this is within Hodgdon's published data for Universal in 9mm.

Chris

[Collateral]

Hello:

Here are my results with a 115gr Remington FMJ and 4.7gr Universal Clays.

Win Cases, Win SP Primers, OAL= 1.140, CZ 85 Combat, 70 degrees, two ten shot strings:

Low 1085 1126

High: 1181 1170

Av. 1144 1150

ES 95.3 43.6

SD 26.81 11.7

This is a lively round that has a fair amount of snap and recoil. It easily makes minor (the 1,085 fps round was an outlier. All others were at or above 1,125 fps.) On the plus side, Universal burns very clean in 9mm. My CZ 85 Combat has a 4 3/8" barrel that is somewhat "fast". You should be able to exceed minor PF with this load in your Glock. All this is within Hodgdon's published data for Universal in 9mm.

Chris

Chris - This is excellent information. I believe this is a true apple to apple comparison to my situation. Your barrel length, powder, and bullet type are right on. I appreciate you sharing this with me.

[8ring]

I made one error. My barrel is 4.7", not 4 and 3/8". That may effect the results a little bit.

Chris

[BigDad]

Hey Collateral,

FWIW, here's some recent data I came up with using a Winchester 115g RN and Universal Clays. Thought it might help the cause:

November 22, 2007 - 38 degrees F. 1.125" OAL. Glock 34 Winchester SP primers.

Grains Avg Vel ES PF

4.6 1138 51 130.8

4.7 1149 47 132.1

4.8 1173 40 134.8

4.9 1189 42 136.7

5.0 1209 65 139.0

I have found 4.8g w/ a 115 to be an easy-shooting, slightly stout, but very accurate load. Even with your shorter barrel, you should have no problem making minor with this load.

Also, Universal Clays seems to work best at pressure. In other words, I wouldn't recommend it for light loads or you start to see sooty cases, the velocity spread gets erratic, and with it, the accuracy. As you increase the powder slowly, you will see all these factors start to come together to optimum. As you see from my numbers, the lowest Extreme Spread comes at 4.8, which appropriately produced the most accurate round.

As one of the readers suggested, you might consider buying even a cheap chrono. It's a great tool when working up a new round.

Good luck!

BigDad

Edited September 18, 2009 by BigDad