DQ for Snap Cap

[Nik Habicht]

A DQ is never issued based upon interpolation or interpretation. It is issued upon the specific violation of a specific rule. That includes everything in the rulebook, even the Glossary.

Read that to mean that if the rulebook does not say it clearly and directly, you don't make it up "just because" you think it should be. Even a judgment call (180, finger, USLC) is addressed directly by a rule.

George,

so how does that work with rule 10.5?

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

That seems to allow some leeway for dealing with the folks who find a creative, not thought of before, way of being unsafe......

And yes, I'm aware, that if I can find something specific under 10.5.x, that I should cite that.....

[Bongo Boy]

For whatever reason I'm unable to see any responses to this older post, but being a real newbie, I thought I'd render an opinion. After I figure out the interface for this site, I'll see how far off I am.

When I read the rule, the message I got was pretty clear--at least as far as the safety area goes--we don't want anything in the safety area that is a) ammo, looks like ammo, c) could be mistaken for ammo d) might make someone wonder if maybe possible there might be ammo, or e) is made to chamber in a firearm and thereby BE IN THE FIREARM when the firearm is in battery position.

As for why it's a DQ, obviously because it's a Rule. As for the 'oversight', I think that's a no-brainer: this isn't the place for oversights.

To me this is a GREAT rule...what it says to me is this: ANYTHING that 'goes in' the gun is prohibited, and therefore when I see ANYTHING in the gun, I know it's an infraction. Very black-and-white, very clear, and very easy to enforce without any burden of 'yeah but it's bright yellow'.

I'm not new to firearms by any means, I AM new to having 50 total strangers wandering around me freely with sidearms. The stricter the rules and the more brutal their enforcement, the more I like it. My first question to any argument about the DQ call would be this: if you can 'inadvertently' forget to check your weapon for empty, what difference does it make that you inadvertently failed to check it for a snap cap vs inadvertently forgot to check it for a live round? A snap cap fell out...means you didn't know the chamber was empty. Am I wrong?

Let me ask this another way. Had a live round fell out instead of a snap cap...or even an empty case fell out...what does that tell you about the handling of the weapon just prior to or after arriving at the match? Sobering question. Answer? DQ Again, a VERY nice way to learn a lesson, considering the alternatives.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Bongo Boy

[Carlos]

Welcome Bongo - good post! I agree with you.

You likely know this already, but I wanted to clarify (at the risk of thread drift) two slight exceptions RE safety area:

1) Ammo IS allowed in the safety area. It can be inside your range bag, and it can be inside loaded magazines that STAY on your belt. What is prohibited is: ammo handling. As long as the ammo or LOADED mags are not touched, they can be taken into/out of the safety area. And,

2) UNLOADED mags can be handled and even put in the gun in the safety area. I am talking about practicing a mag exchange inside the safety area with an UNLOADED mag. I have been yelled at while doing this at several major matches. Once the rule book was consulted, it became clear that handling UNLOADED mags in the safe area is OK. I generally tend to avoid doing it now since it tends to cause a fuss - though it is allowed.

For whatever reason I'm unable to see any responses to this older post, but being a real newbie, I thought I'd render an opinion. After I figure out the interface for this site, I'll see how far off I am.

When I read the rule, the message I got was pretty clear--at least as far as the safety area goes--we don't want anything in the safety area that is a) ammo, looks like ammo, c) could be mistaken for ammo d) might make someone wonder if maybe possible there might be ammo, or e) is made to chamber in a firearm and thereby BE IN THE FIREARM when the firearm is in battery position.

As for why it's a DQ, obviously because it's a Rule. As for the 'oversight', I think that's a no-brainer: this isn't the place for oversights.

To me this is a GREAT rule...what it says to me is this: ANYTHING that 'goes in' the gun is prohibited, and therefore when I see ANYTHING in the gun, I know it's an infraction. Very black-and-white, very clear, and very easy to enforce without any burden of 'yeah but it's bright yellow'.

I'm not new to firearms by any means, I AM new to having 50 total strangers wandering around me freely with sidearms. The stricter the rules and the more brutal their enforcement, the more I like it. My first question to any argument about the DQ call would be this: if you can 'inadvertently' forget to check your weapon for empty, what difference does it make that you inadvertently failed to check it for a snap cap vs inadvertently forgot to check it for a live round? A snap cap fell out...means you didn't know the chamber was empty. Am I wrong?

Let me ask this another way. Had a live round fell out instead of a snap cap...or even an empty case fell out...what does that tell you about the handling of the weapon just prior to or after arriving at the match? Sobering question. Answer? DQ Again, a VERY nice way to learn a lesson, considering the alternatives.

[Glen]

Another slight drift for Bongo.

If you get involved with USPSA rifle and/or shotgun, you will

find that rule 5.2.1.1 mandates the use of a chamber flag.

Many (most?) non-USPSA matches don't require them, but you

should be aware of their existence.

Glen

[George Jones]

A DQ is never issued based upon interpolation or interpretation. It is issued upon the specific violation of a specific rule. That includes everything in the rulebook, even the Glossary.

Read that to mean that if the rulebook does not say it clearly and directly, you don't make it up "just because" you think it should be. Even a judgment call (180, finger, USLC) is addressed directly by a rule.

George,

so how does that work with rule 10.5?

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

That seems to allow some leeway for dealing with the folks who find a creative, not thought of before, way of being unsafe......

Sorry Nik, I'm literally hip deep in manuals these days and can't keep up with the discussions.

Although I do not have the long-term insight into that particular wording, I would agree with you that it is most likely there to allow dealing with an obviously unsafe event which was never foreseen by sane consideration.

In such a case (DQ was issued under 10.5 for an act not specifically listed) an arbitration would be the final arbiter. Then, it would probably be considered for addition to the list at the next rules update.

[kimel]

an obviously unsafe event which was never foreseen by sane consideration

Reminds me of an event I witnessed as a young lad.

We were sighting in our hunting rifles at an open range day and the wind kept blowing the targets off the stakes. We, of course, had run out of staples so were reduced to pulling staples out of the sticks and hammering them back in.

One of the guys in the group proceeded to pull out his old beater revolver and use the grip frame to hammer in the staple instead of picking up the hammer that was laying at his feet. Yes, it was loaded and this was back when revolver firing pins were mounted on the hammer and hammer blocks weren't really seen as necessary.

I still shudder when recalling that event.

[Nik Habicht]

Although I do not have the long-term insight into that particular wording, I would agree with you that it is most likely there to allow dealing with an obviously unsafe event which was never foreseen by sane consideration.

In such a case (DQ was issued under 10.5 for an act not specifically listed) an arbitration would be the final arbiter. Then, it would probably be considered for addition to the list at the next rules update.

That's actually the best official explanation I've ever heard --- it's more complete than my previous one.....

It's good to see you back here.....

[Bongo Boy]

If you get involved with USPSA rifle and/or shotgun, you will

find that rule 5.2.1.1 mandates the use of a chamber flag. Many (most?) non-USPSA matches don't require them, but you

should be aware of their existence. Glen

While it may not be stated anywhere in the rules, I see 'chamberable' as being a significant objectionable characteristic of 'stuff in the chamber' also. It just makes it even easier to understand what goes and what doesn't. So, even while plug and cable-tie type flags could be defeated by someone if they wanted to have a round in the chamber--both flags would hold the gun from going into battery or locked condition. And to me that's the important part of what can go in a chamber and what can't--maybe the rules could avoid the whole dummy/empty case/live round/snap cap issue if they just said--nothing goes in the chamber that, after being placed in the chamber, would allow the weapon to close or lock in battery position. This also simplified the definition of 'visually and physically check for empty'. If a cotton ball or an old earplug is in there...it isn't empty.

And of course the rulebook has to say "...include but are not limited to" for exactly the reason stated. You can never enumerate ALL the things you don't want someone to do, you could only possibly enumerate all the things they must do.

Edited March 14, 2009 by Bongo Boy