5" Xd Legal For Production

[Steve H]

As of now I know that the 5" XD is legal for Production in USPSA, but I have heard that IPSC is not going to allow it. Does anyone have any credible information about that?

thanks,

Steve

[Steve H]

As I understand it, IPSC does not allow the Glock 34/35 in Production, only the 17/22. I am just curious is anyone had any good info on this. I would like to know why IPSC does not allow the 34/35. It seems that someONE has issues with those model guns for some reason. If those who made these type of rules would be more familiar with the guns they are NOT allowing, it would not make any sense. I shot Glocks for 12 years, and still carry one at work, and if you look at the XD, the only similarities (sp) are the safety on the trigger and the plastic frame. The rest of the gun is quite different.

Steve

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

The Springfield XD series are not approved for IPSC Production Division because they are currently classified by IPSC as being single-action-only pistols. By the way, the 5 inch model XD actually has a barrel length of 5.01 inches so, even if the shorter models were approved, the 5 inch model would still exceed the maximum allowable barrel length of 127mm/5 inches.

The same applies to the G34 & G35, which both have a 134mm barrel length (the G17L & G24 are even longer).

And Lynn, there is indeed an approval process used by IPSC, and approved guns are listed here.

And Steve, it's not a case of those of us writing rules being familiar with the guns. The issues are the maximum barrel length and the action.

[mcoliver]

Oh, dang...

Anyway, IIRC they only have 15-round mags. If that's the case, they're no better (capacity-wise) than a Glock19.

Now my short list of future Production guns is getting even shorter.

[Vince Pinto]

McOliver,

Don't give up the ghost just yet. I don't normally like to reveal ongoing discussions but the issue of the Springfield XD series (and the HS2000 on which it is based) is currently under review by the IPSC Production Committee.

I admit there are good arguments to allow the XD sub-5 inch models to be approved, but there are other technicalites and definitions we are bound to consider, and I don't want anybody to jump the gun just yet (and pardon the terrible pun).

The XD series were previously approved but they were "suspended" from the list after we recieved objections, which were supported by the existing rules of the Division.

Anyway, I expect to be able to announce the "final decision" shortly. Watch this space --------> <--------

[Carlos]

This may be obvious to some here but keep in mind that there are, in effect, 2 Production divisions: 1) IPSC Production and 2) USPSA's exceptions to/variations of the IPSC Production division rules.

For those reading this discusion in the USA, keep in mind that the rest of the world selects a Production gun based on, among other factors, maximum factory mag. capacity (they are not limited by 10 rounds), a 5" barrel max length (no 34/34 and apparently no HS2000 - AKA "xd") and a min. 1st round trigger pull of 5 lbs - another reason the 34/35 is banned as it comes stock with a trigger that is entierly too light @ 3.5 lbs. While an international IPSC production gun will always be allowed in the US (provided only 10 rounds loaded in mag), a US Production gun will often have mods not permitted in international competition.

[Steve H]

Vince, thanks for the info, I will print off the IPSC rules when I get back to work, I do have one question, what is the spirit of the rules regarding Production guns? To me it would seem that the pistol be of one that is widely available, purchased at most gun stores, is sutible for daily/duty style use, etc.

While I will probably never shoot outside the US, I do like to know the rules.

Thanks again.

Steve

[Steve H]

I was going to add, that the 5" XD's barrel is not quite 5". I did not want to say that until I checked and in fact it is not 5".

From the edge of feed ramp to muzzle is 4.910

From the edge of locking block area to muzzle is 4.989

From the edge of chamber to muzzle is 4.841

anyway, thanks again for the info, and I would like to see the 5" XD be added to the approved list for IPSC production. I am sure those that do not want it will say now it has a single action trigger!

Thanks again,

STEve

[Flexmoney]

Steve,

I throw in here on the "spirit of the rules" question. Vince can correct me if I am wrong.

One of the first things that comes to my mind when someone mentions "Production Gun" for shooting competition is a double-action first shot.

If we go back far enough in time...the "spirt" of that rule would likely be traced back to the advantages of the single-action 1911 over any double action gun throughout history.

In more recent years, the definition of single-action and double-action has become blurred. It is much harder to label a gun as one or the other. Glock, for example (and with a stroke of marketing genious), came out with what they call a "safe action". It certainly isn't a single-action...but it might not fall into what some old-timers have always considered to be a double-action. It takes some thinking to say, "...oh yeah, I guess pulling the trigger on the glock cocks the gun and fires it...hmmm, so it is a double-action."

The XD is one of those things that doesn't really fit into a pre-determined category very well. It doesn' fit the default rules. Looking at the gun, it makes sense that it should be considered for production division. But, rules are rules. And, in this case, Vince and company are taking the high road and considering the XD for Production.

Cheers to the rule writers on this one!

(Vince, maybe with some good word-smithing, the Production rules could read something along the lines of: Non-single action guns only. Double-action guns must fire first shot in double-action mode. ???)

[Vince Pinto]

Steve,

You've basically got it right, but let me try to explain the theory behind IPSC Production Division in four "levels":

1. The fundamental "spirit" is no single-action-only guns, because they totally dominate IPSC Open, Standard & Modified Divisions (and USPSA Open, Limited, L10), and we wanted to create a home for dozens of other guns which exist in the market place. This also serves to attract "traditional" gun manufacturers back to IPSC.

2. The second criteria is "approved guns only", which must have a minimum trigger pull of 5lbs and a maximum barrel length of 5". Moreover, the first shot must be double action (this allows SA/DA guns to be used, but everybody starts in the same condition).

3. The third criteria is that everybody is scored Minor. This serves to make the most popular, easiest to obtain and easiest to make power factor (and, yes, cheapest) rounds suitable for IPSC PD.

4. We only allow very, very few modifications. This serves to avoid the "equipment race" which also dominates the other divisions.

While "low entry pricetag" is often mooted as a primary reason for IPSC PD, that is not the case. If it was, it would've been easier to just impose a maximum price tag. Having said that, the limitations we've placed above effectively create a "low entry pricetag", and this is a nice side benefit.

Flex,

You're absolutely correct that some "original" definitions have blurred over the years because technology has overtaken them, and this is why IPSC had to create our own definitions which can be applied to even the latest model guns in the market.

Having said that, I think you'll find that the IPSC definitions of SA and DA are actually historical, despite only being on the table now. If you've not seen the IPSC definitions, they are:

"Single Action" means activation of the trigger causes a single action to occur (i.e. the hammer or striker falls).

"Double Action" means activation of the trigger causes more than a single action to occur (i.e. the hammer or striker rises or retracts, then falls.

However under these definitions, Glocks are double-action but the XD Series are single action.

As I said earlier, we are conducting a review of the XD series to see if there is anyway we can allow them in IPSC PD, which we'd really love to do but, frankly, the chances are slim to none. Even the ATF classifies Glocks as DA and the XD series as SA, and I understand IDPA will not allow the XD series in the same Division as a garden-variety Glocks.

Of course the IPSC Fat Lady has not sung yet, but I can hear her clearing her throat ................. as soon as a "final-final" decision has been reached on the XD series, I'll make an announcement here.

[Vince Pinto]

One more thing Steve.

I don't know about your measurements of the "5 inch" XD, but see the Springfield website for the official measurement.

[Steve H]

Vince and Flex,

thanks for the input and posts. While I will agree to disagree, I do think that the XD should be allowed in IPSC production. Anyone that has shot one will say that is closer to a revolver trigger than anything else they have fired. I think the trigger is more difficult to master than the Glock trigger.

thanks again :-)

Steve

[Steve H]

Vince,

I checked them before I posted, would not want to post something not true. I talked to someone who shoots the XD quite a bit, and he probably knows the XD better than anyone in the US, except for maybe Dave Williams, also says it is not 5". I would think that Springfield would change their website.

Again, thanks for the cordil posts. Alot of folks get too hostile on the web. I don't want to come off being a jerk, just trying to get some answers and you are kind enough to give them.

Thanks, how is it in Hong Kong? Kind of warm here in AZ

Steve