Clays In 40 S&w

[Rocket]

I've got a STI Edge in 40 s&w and have been using n320 with the MG 180 JHP's, but am thinking about going to Clays . I worked up some loads today and chronoed them . I started with 4.1 grn and went up in .1 grn increments to 4.5. These were loaded to 1.227 oal I was getting 925 fps with 4.4 , and 934 fps with 4.5 . 70 degrees F outside today. They felt pretty good , a bit softer than the n320. I inspected the spent cases ( new Winchester brass ) and found no evidence for loose primers and they measured the same as my n320 loads at the bases. I am relatively new to reloading and I was wondering what everyone thinks of using Clays in 40 . Are there any other pressure signs I should be looking for ? What about the oal , would it be better to take it out more to say 1.235 or 1.24 ? Also has anyone messed around with n310 in 40 ? I've also got a pound of that hanging around.

[Guest Larry Cazes]

Rocket, I have since given up on Clays for .40sw. Just a bit too fast! I use Clays exclusively for major .45ACP loads. You might try Universal Clays for your 40, I have been using it for about a year.

[EricW]

Rocket,

The real danger with fast powders like Clays and Titegroup in 40 is double charges. You're using so little powder, it's tough to see down that long, narrow case. U. Clays is probably a better choice for 40. I found out the hard way and nearly blew up my blaster. If you're going to stick with the fast powders, you definitely want the charge-checker (if you've got a 650 or better).

No clue about the VV....

[ErikW]

I have been using Clays in .40 at 1.20" in a free-bored barrel for a few years.

It's easy to see in the case because it's bulky and light-colored.

I've never had a case separation or similar problem. I did chronograph at Minor at an Area match.

I use significantly more powder than most people, Clays or otherwise. Primers are right on the edge of flattening and/or smearing with a standard firing pin. Since that Area match I've bumped my load up even more and now a lot of my brass bulges and won't gauge after reloading.

It's softer than N320. It's far less accurate than N320.

After almost going to Minor with N320 at Area 1 with a huge spread, when the Clays load was consistently fast, I'm regretting my decision to switch to N320.

[Rocket]

EriK

When you say the primers are close to flattening and or smearing , what do you mean , or rather what does that look like. I use a long limcat firing pin , what do I need to look for ? I've run into similiar problems with the n320 as far as velocity goes . One day I'm getting great numbers and the next well not so great. I almost made minor in a local match as well. It gets a little dicey trying to stay on the ragged edge of 165 pf.

Bill

[ErikW]

No problems with the Limcat long firing pin. Without it, the primer starts to flatten around the edges and some start melting, which results in a smear of or around the pin crater.

I'm not trying to be on the ragged edge of 165, I'm going for 170 plus, closer to 175. And only managed 167 with N320 recently.

[Rocket]

I got the long firing pin due to several light hits with my old standard length. That problem went away. Is what your describing the same as "primer flow" ?

Bill

[Hagop]

Rocket,

Safety?

As long as you are freebored and seating your 180gr. MG bullets out over 1.200 oal you are on the right track as far as assuring a better safety margin with this powder (Clays).

Using an extra long firing pin such as the Limcat is another plus,along with the use of small rifle primers.

Assuring the chamber fully supports the case and that the throating has not been over done is again another plus with the use of this particular powder in our sport.

Inspecting the quality level of the brass is another area that special attention should be paid with the use of this powder.

I myself am partial to R.P brass & Speer brass,yet most often come across good deals on once fired Winchester brass.

Federal brass I have a tendency to avoid because it is the weakest of the other three as far as .40 S&W brass is concerned.

Monitoring the powder mesure before starting a reloading session and during it in random checks,will also increase the margin of safety with this powder (Clays).

It may seem as a lot to do in assuring a good safety margin in the use of this particular powder....but in fact this is a general practice that should be ingrained when using powders such as N320, Titegroup, International Clays and last but not the least Clays.

You are on the right track if you are doing these things in a consistent manner.

[Carlos]

There is another precaution (which Brian has posted on previously) in using straight Clays in .40 w/ heavy bullets like 180s and 200s: never allow your ammo to get too hot or pressures can spike (like leaving ammo boxes in the trunk under the Arizona sun for a few hours). Years ago - when PF was still 175, some shooters resorted to keeping clays loads in coolers - sometimes w/ ice packs to keep pressures from spiking.

Since that time, (and this part is my own opinion, not BE's) there are two factors that help make Clays use possible in .40 if you are careful: the lower power factor and (if you like them) 180 grain or lighter bullets. Both seem to help keep Clays in the safe range pressure wise. Keep it cool, load long if possible, use a supported chamber, and don't push it far beyond 165.

That being said, I have inspected the cases from several competitors guns here in Area 8 that showed primers that were not only flatened, but the tool marks from the breachface were engraved right accross the case AND primer. Not surprisingly, these competitors complained of head seperations and worse. While Clays is my absolute favorite in .45 ACP, I approach it w. caution in .40.

[ErikW]

rocket, yeah, primer flow, primer flowback, primer smearing, primer melting, etc.

[Jack Suber]

I just finished testing Titegroup with Star 180s. I am switching from the N320 simply because it can be a pain in the rear to find sometimes. Anyway, I loaded the 180s with 4.7 grns at 1.200" with WSP primers. I got a consistent 936 fps with it using Speer and Win brass. Rem and Federal brass dropped to about 928. I NEVER got this consistency with the N320. I saw no pressure signs and the cases actually expanded less than my N320 loads. Also, this load felt much softer than my N320 loads. I am going to try 4.8 grns this week, weather permitting, to see how fast they will run. It does take some getting use to not seeing the powder in the case (my N320 load of 5.1 grns filled 1/2 of the case). But, I should be able to catch a double charge. What frustrated me with the N320 is that if I used 5 grns I could only average about 918 fps. If I went to 5.1 it would average about 965-975 and recoil was VERY significant. I wondered if my powder measure was off so I tested loads measured by hand with the same results. I would also experience significant variations in velocity, sometimes up to 50 fps between rounds.

I also tested the Titegroup with Star 165s and that load was REALLY sweet. Very accurate, fast cycling, and came in at about a 169 power factor. No pressure signs and the blast was not that significant. I was using the Star JHP which has a very deep cavity. As a result, it is a long 165 very similar in dimensions to the 180. This allowed me to load this bullet longer than normal 165s. I will be playing with this one more. My only hesitation to switching to 165s is finding lead 165s to practice with.

I tested Star 155s and Titegroup, too. I did experience pressure signs with these (primer flow and significant buldges at the base of the cases). These loads were very accurate and cycled the gun quickly. It was very manageable but the blast was rather obnoxious. I used a light load and got a PF of 177! I might try it again with the seating depth longer. I guess the pressures were high because of the seating depth - these are short stubby bullets with very little bearing surface. So, they have to be seated rather deep.

I have had spooky results with Clays and that is why I moved away from it. It is great with a 45 but a 40, I just would rather not take that chance. Take care.

Jack

[Rocket]

Thanks for all the great posts . I did some more testing today. Tuff descision but I think I'll give Clays a try for awhile. All my test loads look good so far in the 925-930 fps range , but it has been unseasonally cool outside lately. I'll check them again as it warms up. They really have a sweet soft feel almost like you are shooting a 45 rather than a 40. I'll keep an eye on everything and slow down my reloading a bit. The 1050 really likes to fly. Erik is right on the groups though , it just doesn't seem as tight as the n320 for accuracy. It really does seem to smooth out the close in shooting though. I did a couple of Bill Drills and the front site never seemed to get out of the a-zone at 7 yds. . I ripped one off at 1.77 , which is very good for me. Hell maybe a personal best.

Bill