Quickie: need Bullseye data for 185gr JHP/OAL too

[thefish]

I really need some Bullseye data (.45 ACP) for 185gr JHP (Montana Gold) with WLP primers. I'm not inerested in PF, I just want a low recoil, nice accuracy load.

Am pretty new to RL'dg in this caliber, how much sleep should I lose over OAL? As long as they are consistent within batches, fall between 1.124 and 2.30 (per RL'g manuals) and fit in the mags and feed/eject in the gun, is that all I need to worry about? OAL is not super-important in .45ACP if only some basic parameters are followed?

Thanks

Edited November 19, 2007 by thefish

[Allgoodhits]

I really need some Bullseye data (.45 ACP) for 185gr JHP (Montana Gold) with WLP primers. I'm not inerested in PF, I just want a low recoil, nice accuracy load.

Am pretty new to RL'dg in this caliber, how much sleep should I lose over OAL? As long as they are consistent within batches, fall between 1.175 and 2.30 and fit in the mags and feed/eject in the gun, is that all I need to worry about? OAL is not super-important in .45ACP if only some basic parameters are followed?

Thanks

4.2 - 4.4 grains of Bullseye should be a good, accurate & soft load for a 185gr JHP in .45 acp. OAL matters for purpurposes of feeding, magazine length, ejecting live round if necessary, and PRESSURE . Also depending on ogive of bullet, a too short OAL may not provide proper crimp.

MJ

[thefish]

I really need some Bullseye data (.45 ACP) for 185gr JHP (Montana Gold) with WLP primers. I'm not inerested in PF, I just want a low recoil, nice accuracy load.

Am pretty new to RL'dg in this caliber, how much sleep should I lose over OAL? As long as they are consistent within batches, fall between 1.175 and 2.30 and fit in the mags and feed/eject in the gun, is that all I need to worry about? OAL is not super-important in .45ACP if only some basic parameters are followed?

Thanks

4.2 - 4.4 grains of Bullseye should be a good, accurate & soft load for a 185gr JHP in .45 acp. OAL matters for purpurposes of feeding, magazine length, ejecting live round if necessary, and PRESSURE . Also depending on ogive of bullet, a too short OAL may not provide proper crimp.

MJ

Thanks MJ, what you said about OAL...it is b/c of the way the .45 ACP headspaces?

Would even lower loads of 3.4-3.8gr of Bullseye with 185 JHP work?

[Kingman]

I load light ones for my dad around 3.75. I prefer them around 4.5 though, as the lighter ones are well sluggish feeling

[Allgoodhits]

I really need some Bullseye data (.45 ACP) for 185gr JHP (Montana Gold) with WLP primers. I'm not inerested in PF, I just want a low recoil, nice accuracy load.

Am pretty new to RL'dg in this caliber, how much sleep should I lose over OAL? As long as they are consistent within batches, fall between 1.175 and 2.30 and fit in the mags and feed/eject in the gun, is that all I need to worry about? OAL is not super-important in .45ACP if only some basic parameters are followed?

Thanks

4.2 - 4.4 grains of Bullseye should be a good, accurate & soft load for a 185gr JHP in .45 acp. OAL matters for purpurposes of feeding, magazine length, ejecting live round if necessary, and PRESSURE . Also depending on ogive of bullet, a too short OAL may not provide proper crimp.

MJ

Thanks MJ, what you said about OAL...it is b/c of the way the .45 ACP headspaces?

Would even lower loads of 3.4-3.8gr of Bullseye with 185 JHP work?

Thefish, the headspace has to do with how far the case goes into, or doen't go into the chamber. In other words where the neck of the brass makes contact and thus stops going any in any further. Where the chamber ends and the barrel begins. Keep in mind a .45 ACP round is rimless, therefore in theory it would keep going unless there is something to stop it. So proper headspace also provides consistent headspace, which is necessary for reliablility and highest accuracy potential.

Regarding OAL and crimp etc. I am no expert on projectiles, but basically bullets have four outer areas. The base or bottom, the driving band or that area which comes in contact with the bore, the ogive or the area which transitions from the driving band to the nose, and the nose.

The case (brass) only comes in contact with the some of the driving band area, as some is in the case and some just outside the case. Not considering pressure variations, but if you seat a bullet too deep into the case, it is possible that the neck is forward of the driving band area of the bullet and it becomes almost impossible, or impossible to crimp since the diameter of the bullet at that spot could be too small. I think it is correect to say that the driving band area of the bullet is that diameter which is the diameter of the advertised bullet. In other words a .451 bullet is .451 at the base and it will be .451 going toward the nose for some distance. Where the dimension reduces in diameter thus no longer .451 is an indication of when seating must stop, or improper crimp is likely to occur. The driving band is that area along the tube of the bullet which is .451 in this example.

You could "possibly" run "lead" 185 gr bullets as low as 3.4 gr of BE if it is a 5" and there is no scope mounted on the slide. You should be able to run lead to 3.6 - 3.8 BE with lead bullets.

I would doubt that a 3.4 gr BE load will work with a 185 JHP, but it may. Be careful, as you could end up with a bullet stuck in the barrel, and to shoot a second shot on top of that one is a BOMB! I would guess that if the 3.4 - 3.5 gr BE works with a jacketed 185, then it will not be accurate. Usually, jacketed 185's like to run +/- of 800 fps and some even like 900 +/- better. If you want light, go lead as it takes less powder to achieve similar velocity. Given two bullets of same weight and same powder achieving same velocity. The load that requires less of the same powder to move the same weight bullets the same velocity will recoil "less" on paper. This is above my head but basically it has to do with ejecta and the weight of charge and the weight of mass which has to be moved to obtain a velocity.

Look at multiple manuals comparing and contrasting data and bullets. Go only by manuals until, you have established knowledge and confidence to vary, but then cautiously and very slowly. If in doubt-don't!

Good luck and be safe!

Martin

[Canuck-IL]

4.2 - 4.3 gr of BE at around 1.21 OAL will yield about 830-840 fps from a 5" with Rem and Nosler 185s. One of the 'classic' Bullseye loads that actually uses Bullseye powder.

/Bryan

[thefish]

Martin and everyone else, thanks for taking the time to respond.

Yes, you were exactly right...I tried the 3.4 of Bull w/185 JHP in my Glock and Smith 1911. I was careful to check that a bullet left the barrel (a new hole in paper for each shot), but in neither gun did it have enough kick to eject the shell. So it would fire, but not cycle. Negligible recoil, accuracy was OK, (but I'm no Doug Koenig). I inspected the cases and each one was still pretty shiny except for what I would describe as "carbon marks" on the side of the shell that corresponded with the feed ramp in the barrel. That was caused by too low of a charge that didn't expand the case, so the gases leaked around the shell right...? I plan to jump it to 4.2-4.4 next time.

But getting back to what you were saying...the manuals give min/max OAL as 1.124 to 2.30 depending on bullet weight. Does it matter in terms of accuracy what the OAL is as long as you are consistent and as long as you crimp it along the part of the bullet that is the .451" driving band portion of the bullet? What I mean is, if it is on the long side, say pushing 2.30, isn't it closer to the lands/grooves and thus enters the barrel more precisely, reproducibly and more close to perfectly horizontally oriented?

Also...your comments about lead bullets. Why does it matter if it is JHP, CMJ, FMJ, or lead?

Finally...do you guys think that as pistol cartridges go, that .45 ACP is pretty "forgiving" for the most part? If so, that is b/c the pressures are on the low side when you compare it to say, .40 S&W?

Thanks again for the help from all you guys.

Fish

[Canuck-IL]

But getting back to what you were saying...the manuals give min/max OAL as 1.124 to 2.30 depending on bullet weight. Does it matter in terms of accuracy what the OAL is as long as you are consistent and as long as you crimp it along the part of the bullet that is the .451" driving band portion of the bullet? What I mean is, if it is on the long side, say pushing 2.30, isn't it closer to the lands/grooves and thus enters the barrel more precisely, reproducibly and more close to perfectly horizontally oriented?

In theory, Yes but the effects are more obvious with hi-power rifle rounds. Barrel to slide lockup and to a lesser extent, slide to frame positioning for each shot is a larger percentage of the variance. OAL is mostly concerned with reliable feeding and safe pressures. And the bullet must be seated deep enough for the neck tension to have a reasonable purchase. Look at a 185's drive band vs a 230 ... you've got to put enough in the case that it'll stay put...both upon feeding and initial pressure buildup upon ignition.

Also...your comments about lead bullets. Why does it matter if it is JHP, CMJ, FMJ, or lead?

It takes more powder to drive a copper FMJ through the barrel than it does a thinly coated TMC/CMJ. Lead requires even less altho about the same as the thinner plated, like Raniers.

You're also mixing bullet style with the composition...JHP is a style of bullet which might be of lead or FMJ (copper jacketed lead round) construction.

Finally...do you guys think that as pistol cartridges go, that .45 ACP is pretty "forgiving" for the most part? If so, that is b/c the pressures are on the low side when you compare it to say, .40 S&W?

20k psi is obviously more forgiving than 40k psi - you can get yourself in trouble with either, it's just easier with the latter rounds.

Note also that all manuals don't load all bullets of a similar design and construction to the same overall lengths...and therefore don't list the same min and max charges. Further, a 6" fixture is often used rather than an honest to god barrel in a gun...so, YMMV. Always compare at least a couple of reliable sources and trust nothing you find on rumornet without careful verification.

/Bryan

[thefish]

It takes more powder to drive a copper FMJ through the barrel than it does a thinly coated TMC/CMJ. Lead requires even less altho about the same as the thinner plated, like Raniers.

I see what you mean. All very good points meticulously made, especially about confusing bullet construction and style.

But other than needing more powder to drive the copper FMJ compared to the plated Raniers...if you watch your pressures (or at least what you presume they are via velocity measurements) is bullet choice really just a matter of personal choice based on accuracy, price, terminal performance, etc.?

By extension of your argument, if you are operating at the high end of pressure/velocity, do you gain a little "safety factor" if you use lead or Ranier bullets?

Thanks,

Fish

[Canuck-IL]

is bullet choice really just a matter of personal choice based on accuracy, price, terminal performance, etc.?

Pretty much ... also the fact that wadcutters and most semiwads make reakky nice round holes in paper. The recoil impulse is different for different weight bullets driven to the same PF...eg. a 185gr at 170pf feels snappy to most folks vs a 230gr at the same pf. Once shooters' find a load that feeds and shoots well with the desired pf, they generally tend to stay with it ... at least until price intrudes.

By extension of your argument, if you are operating at the high end of pressure/velocity, do you gain a little "safety factor" if you use lead or Ranier bullets?

Not enough to matter ... other issues arise at the high end - like shedding the plating.

/B

[Allgoodhits]

Thefish, I think Canuck-IL addressed your questions about as good as they could be. Personally, I have found that Ranier's of a given weight require more powder than lead bullets by a fair margin and Rainier's sometimes require more powder than jackets. At least this has been my findings with .38 spl, 9mm, .38Super and .45acp running light loads with fast powders.

Changing (reducing) the recoil spring in your gun may enhance cycling of the lighter loads, thus improve the feel.

I often will go back to "What do the major manufacturers do?" when seeking an economic, soft, very accurate load, when PF is NOT an issue. For the .45 acp that would have to include a look at FEDERAL, REMINGTON, WINCHESTER Factory 185gr WC (jackets) loads. I am sure they have tested about every variation that exists, and they load 185 gr WC rounds at 775 +/- fps. Many shooters hand load their jackets and lead bullets in this weight range 185-200 gr at these same velocities for the softer loads (no PF requirement) for accuracy and feel. Some choose to kick the velocity up to 800-875 fps for 50 yd shooting when using 185 JHPs or 185 - 200 gr lead bullets, but some use the lighter load. Don't have any information on running 185gr jacket WC's in the upper 800 fps range.

Much has been tested and written about soft loads. I am quite certain that the softest load is going to be a 230 gr lead bullet, using the least amount of powder by weight with the proper powder type, that cycles your gun, and provides the accuracy that you need for your shooting games.

Often people speak of accuracy with no reference or definition. To me this is worthless information. One may as well say their bullets are fast, real fast, slow or barely moving. The world according me, as an equipment goal, is that a firearm and ammo used in that firearm, should be capable of shooting 5 - 12 shot groups that measure half the size of the highest scoring ring at the greatest distance that you have to shoot.

In simpler terms, if you have to shoot up to 25 yds and the maximum value scoring ring is 8" in diameter, then your equipment should be able to hold a 4" group. If you have to shoot to 50 yds, then 4" becomes the standard for an 8" highest value scoring ring and so on. I find that any accuracy testing should be at least 25 yds and preferably 50 yds for handguns. At the greater distance you have better idea how ALL the bullets are flying. Sometimes for whatever reason, you have a light load. If testing at less than 25 yds, that light load may still print close to the group, but at greater distance, where that loss of velocity (stability) may become important, then that flyer will really show up. Some erroneously assume that if a gun will shoot 1" at 12 yds that it will shoot 2" at 25yds that it will shoot 4" at 50 yds! At 10-12 yds a smoothbore will shoot a decent group. We use a scale, a powder measure, calipers and a chrono, so let's start using a ruler!

Good luck, and be safe!

Martin

Edited November 22, 2007 by Allgoodhits

[ChuckS1]

This site will have the data you want for bullseye loads. By far, this is the site for bullseye information.

Bullseye-L

Edited November 22, 2007 by ChuckS1

[thefish]

All good points, each one elegantly made. Thanks for the .45ACP web site, ChuckS1.

TheFish