Major 9

[Cardinal]

I've been running these 9mm Major loads thru Quickload and I cant get the numbers to add up.

What OAL are you all using?

Quickload uses 13.3gr as the water capacity of the 9x19mm cases.

A 9mm loaded with 9.2gr 3N38 loaded to 1.17" with Hornady 125gr HAP.

Using this data, Quickload calculates the fill rate in the case to be 136.8%, meaning a very compressed load.

Estimated pressure: 58538 psi!

If case capacity is increased to 14.3 (assuming one has very roomy cases), the fillrate is reduced to 123.2% and pressure to 44327 psi. Still a compressed load.

[Radical Precision Designs]

I've been running these 9mm Major loads thru Quickload and I cant get the numbers to add up.

What OAL are you all using?

Quickload uses 13.3gr as the water capacity of the 9x19mm cases.

A 9mm loaded with 9.2gr 3N38 loaded to 1.17" with Hornady 125gr HAP.

Using this data, Quickload calculates the fill rate in the case to be 136.8%, meaning a very compressed load.

Estimated pressure: 58538 psi!

If case capacity is increased to 14.3 (assuming one has very roomy cases), the fillrate is reduced to 123.2% and pressure to 44327 psi. Still a compressed load.

Major 9 loads are not to be found, nor will they ever be found to be within SAAMI specifications.

Experience in handling these powders is the common denominator to the shooters who do it. Some powders can be compressed, others can not. (Water can not be compressed either.) Different powders do not react the same to compression. Compressing the powder, seating the bullet deeper, adding a heavier crimp, using a larger diameter bullet, or a heavier bullet substitution: all of these will increase the pressure dramatically. The burn rate for a specific volume in a specific "dwell time" is less critical when the case capacity is reduced and the burn rate is slow. The mechanics here is that not enough pressure or dwell time will be available for the powder to reach full combustion or peak pressure for the volume involved. Some of these powders require a specific "back pressure" threshold in order to deliver their performance. If you were to fill a 9mm case completely with a powder intended for a 50 BMG load and compressed the hell out of it, even then you would barely ignite the powder and most of it would be pushed out of the barrel unburned. Do the same with a fast burning powder and you create a "hand grenade".

It is true that some of these loads, as possible for the Major 9 are more than border line, especially with non-linear burning fast powders. That is why specific loads work better than others depending on your individual set-up. Some of the faster burning, snappier loads intended for shorter barrel Open guns will develop extremely high pressures, and if used in non-vented longer barrels you could blow up some cases. On the other hand, some loads using powders like VV N-105 and 3n38 will do great on longer barrelled Open guns, but barely make major PF on shorter ones. Especially if you were to use lighter bullets that produce lower back pressures. If you look in most manuals you will notice that some of these slower burning powders are listed in some of the smaller cartridges, but only with the heaviest of the bullets. By increasing and compressing the loads, and increasing the back pressure you are attempting to create a longer burn (on a slow burning powder) and some utilization of additional gasses created, before the pressure builds too much to become dangerous. In these instances, when judiciously engineered, the peak pressures created are not that high at all.

And ... this is what makes this interesting and challenging. Just make sure you project the outcome on solid knowledge of the chemistry and performance of the powders and components used .... p l e a s e !!!!!!!!!!

Edited October 1, 2007 by Radical Precision Designs

[Cardinal]

Major 9 loads are not to be found, nor will they ever be found to be within SAAMI specifications.

Experience in handling these powders is the common denominator to the shooters who do it. Some powders can be compressed, others can not. (Water can not be compressed either.) Different powders do not react the same to compression. Compressing the powder, seating the bullet deeper, adding a heavier crimp, using a larger diameter bullet, or a heavier bullet substitution: all of these will increase the pressure dramatically. The burn rate for a specific volume in a specific "dwell time" is less critical when the case capacity is reduced and the burn rate is slow. The mechanics here is that not enough pressure or dwell time will be available for the powder to reach full combustion or peak pressure for the volume involved. Some of these powders require a specific "back pressure" threshold in order to deliver their performance. If you were to fill a 9mm case completely with a powder intended for a 50 BMG load and compressed the hell out of it, even then you would barely ignite the powder and most of it would be pushed out of the barrel unburned. Do the same with a fast burning powder and you create a "hand grenade".

It is true that some of these loads, as possible for the Major 9 are more than border line, especially with non-linear burning fast powders. That is why specific loads work better than others depending on your individual set-up. Some of the faster burning, snappier loads intended for shorter barrel Open guns will develop extremely high pressures, and if used in non-vented longer barrels you could blow up some cases. On the other hand, some loads using powders like VV N-105 and 3n38 will do great on longer barrelled Open guns, but barely make major PF on shorter ones. Especially if you were to use lighter bullets that produce lower back pressures. If you look in most manuals you will notice that some of these slower burning powders are listed in some of the smaller cartridges, but only with the heaviest of the bullets. By increasing and compressing the loads, and increasing the back pressure you are attempting to create a longer burn (on a slow burning powder) and some utilization of additional gasses created, before the pressure builds too much to become dangerous. In these instances, when judiciously engineered, the peak pressures created are not that high at all.

And ... this is what makes this interesting and challenging. Just make sure you project the outcome on solid knowledge of the chemistry and performance of the powders and components used .... p l e a s e !!!!!!!!!!

I understand that.

I've started thinking about an open gun (probably won't happen untill the winter/spring) but are having problems deciding on a caliber. Either a 9mm Major or a 38super/super comp.

Like Jostein mentioned, regardless of caliber, I'm in reality limited to VV powders. Ohh, well. We'll see.

[jostein jensen]

Cardinal: My first intention when I bought this gun was getting a supercomp barrel for it right away as I wasn't too keen on the 9mm due to its records of being "picky" on guns... I was worried about it not working 100%. But it sure does. It feeds and fires factory ammo like there's no tomorrow. And to keep it like it I'm getting mags from HSMITH in here to be on the safe side, as mags are the cause of most jams on these guns.

So I'm going to give it a go.. The Dillon Quickchange I needed for 9mm and super is the same anyway so it won't cost me anything to try it out.

And being limited to VV doesn't really sound like a very bad thing. Both SVI and Brazos recommend 3n38 only in their open guns, so it must be a good powder for gases and it being so clean sure is nice as well. 1000 rounds through my Edge with N320 and it was cleaner than my IMM after 100 rounds of factory ammo. I never thought the difference was so large...

[geezer-lock]

Major 9 loads are not to be found, nor will they ever be found to be within SAAMI specifications.

I don’t know from beans about SAAMI specs but VV lists this load for 9mm. The 1207fps yields a PF of 177+.

"3N38 0,41 6,3 357 1171 0,45 6,9 368 1207" {edit to add} Used the Hornady 147gr JHP. I used the Zero 147 JHP with similar results.

Quoted from page 46 of the VV manual that also has this:

"The listed maximum loads have been determined according to the respective CIP/SAAMI maximum pressure specification, whichever is lower.

These test methods have been deemed to be safe throughout..."

There is another load of Reloader9 that I can't can find at the moment which was also major. {Edit} Sorry it was Power Pistol and it did not make major.

David C

Edited October 5, 2007 by geezer-lock

[scirocco38s]

I have just built my major 9 gun and found out several things. It is a sti trubor t1 barrel with the end baffle machined off to make it slightly shorter. I have 3 hybrid holes in the barrel that are .400 back from the first comp hole and .375 ctr-ctr. The holes are .110. The gun would make major easily with Longshot, HS-6, Sp-2 and 3n38 before we machined the hybrids. After the hybrids were installed the Longshot was out of the picture alltoghether, but the others still make major without problem. Longshot will still make a 160 pf though. The sp2, 3n38 loads though are by far the most preferred. Using a 121 montana I can achieve 1400fps no problem. The 124 would be even less a problem. I load to facotry Oal and I have grams tuned mags with the spacers welded in the back with his special follower. I have not had many problems with brass as while getting the bugs out I was using pickup range brass and didnt check cases for mfg or anything. I was occassionally having a problem with fat brass locking up the gun while chambering and that was when I started using only winchester brass and rollsizing before loading. After that all problems went away. The loads with VV3n38 will work and will perform well, The Sp2 was better in my opinion, I havent tried vv3n37 as I have used all of it up. I wish I had the problem that all I could get was VV powder as right now we are searching for vv powders.

[geezer-lock]

I have just built my major 9 gun and found out several things. It is a sti trubor t1 barrel with the end baffle machined off to make it slightly shorter. I have 3 hybrid holes in the barrel that are .400 back from the first comp hole and .375 ctr-ctr. The holes are .110. The gun would make major easily with Longshot, HS-6, Sp-2 and 3n38 before we machined the hybrids. After the hybrids were installed the Longshot was out of the picture alltoghether, but the others still make major without problem. Longshot will still make a 160 pf though. The sp2, 3n38 loads though are by far the most preferred.

Just goes to show (again) that small changes anywhere in the system can make a significant difference in output.

David C