Milking For A 7 O'clock Pattern?

[Gumby]

Out of 200 rounds tonight at least 99% of my shots landed low and to the left. This was my first live fire session using my new SA XD sub-compact. I doubt that the sights are off since the shots either land slightly or greatly low and left, possibly due to varying degrees of milking. Also, with my best string only the first shot was low and left; all others were done by resetting the trigger (a short distance) and then firing immediately. This indicates that the problem has something to do with trigger pull.

Note: The sites seem stable with dry fire.

9mm strings of 10 rounds; 21 feet.

[ihatepickles]

Do you see your sights at the moment the gun goes bang?

If you're not seeing your sights when the gun goes bang, what are you looking at?

[Matt Griffin]

It sounds like you've already determined the problem. When I switched over to Glock, I had the same issue. Here are the things that helped:

1. Get your trigger finger off of the frame

2. Make sure the finger pad is truly centered on the trigger

3. Stage the trigger, the longer pull gives you time to tense

4. Improve your grip. We all can.

5. Shoot 1,500 rounds before you give up on it.

H.

[Allgoodhits]

Shoot with the other hand. If the groups are in the same place, then evaluate the sights. However, if the group changes location to 5 o'clock then you are likely jerking the trigger to some degree.

Somehow support the gun so that poor trigger control prevents the gun from moving i.e. sand bags or whatever. Shoot and deternine if the 7 o'clock impact continues. If it does then sights, if it does not then the problem likely is trigger control and or grip.

Mastering trigger control is the hardest part to learn and repeat.

Good Luck,

MJ

p.s. Tighten your grip before applying trigger pressure, not during and never give up!

[bountyhunter]

Ditto on reading the sights. You absolutely MUST keep your eyes open and use the muzzle flash as a backlight to snap a mental picture of where the gun was aimed as it went off. I suspect you will be surprised......

7 o'clock is usually from trigger "yank", could be from milking also.

Check dry fire using the same pull speed and motion and see which way the sights move.

Get the trigger centered on the finger tip pad and see if that squares the gun up at pull.

If all else fails, a tighter left hand grip usually holds the gun on line better.

Mastering trigger control is the hardest part to learn and repeat.

Yep. A perfect shot only requires two simple things:

1) Aim the gun in the right direction

2) Pull the trigger without moving it

Most people are a lot better at #1 than they think, and WAYYYYY worse at #2 than they think.

Edited December 13, 2006 by bountyhunter

[Gumby]

Do you see your sights at the moment the gun goes bang?

If you're not seeing your sights when the gun goes bang, what are you looking at?

Yes. The sights look right on target up until the bang. During dry fire they remain on target all the way through.

Maybe I'm pulling low at the last second only when I know there is a live round chambered. I could check this by having someone randomly add some dummy rounds to the magazine.

---------

Thanks for all the advice. I will check it all.

I. Rule out sighting problem by shooting with the other hand or by using a sand bag.

This should be the quickest and easiest, so I'll check this first. If the groups are in the same place, then evaluate the sights. However, if the group changes location to 5 o'clock then you are likely jerking the trigger to some degree.

II. If it is not the sights, move onto trigger control and grip.

1. Get your trigger finger off of the frame

2. Make sure the finger pad is truly centered on the trigger

3. Stage the trigger, the longer pull gives you time to tense

4. Improve your grip. We all can.

5. Shoot 1,500 rounds before you give up on it.

For number 5, I will have to learn about reloading since the last trip to the range cost me about $60 for 200 rounds of 9mm and lane usage.

[ihatepickles]

Do you see your sights at the moment the gun goes bang?

If you're not seeing your sights when the gun goes bang, what are you looking at?

Yes. The sights look right on target up until the bang. During dry fire they remain on target all the way through.

Maybe I'm pulling low at the last second only when I know there is a live round chambered. I could check this by having someone randomly add some dummy rounds to the magazine.

Personally, I think you're not seeing the sights the moment the gun goes bang. If you're seeing the sights the way you need to see the sights there should be no question whether you pulled low at the last second. All of the other advice is secondary to seeing this, this is calling your shot and once you can call you will fix your shot placement without conscious thought. This is 100% a mind game.

If you'd like an exercise to make this advice more tangible, stop blinking. While you're fresh and focused goto the range with a small number of rounds, say 50 rounds. While you're firing, put some conscious effort into not blinking at the moment the gun fires. Your only focus should be the sight picture at the moment the gun fires. Your goal is to know exactly where the bullet will strike the target before it hits.

Like so many things in sports, you don't have time to go through a mental checklist in the heat of the moment. If you call your shots your subconscious will fix the rest.

Edited December 14, 2006 by ihatepickles

[Punkin Chunker]

Ditto on reading the sights. You absolutely MUST keep your eyes open and use the muzzle flash as a backlight to snap a mental picture of where the gun was aimed as it went off. I suspect you will be surprised......

7 o'clock is usually from trigger "yank", could be from milking also.

Check dry fire using the same pull speed and motion and see which way the sights move.

Get the trigger centered on the finger tip pad and see if that squares the gun up at pull.

If all else fails, a tighter left hand grip usually holds the gun on line better.

Mastering trigger control is the hardest part to learn and repeat.

Yep. A perfect shot only requires two simple things:

1) Aim the gun in the right direction

2) Pull the trigger without moving it

Most people are a lot better at #1 than they think, and WAYYYYY worse at #2 than they think.

Everything about eliminating other problems sounds great, as do all the suggestions.

FWIW, my .02:

One of the things that can happen to people who switch to Glocks is that they squeeze all the fingers of their strong hand at the same time as they squeeze the trigger, which pushes the group left and down -- what you've called "milking". Also, too little finger on the trigger can push the group left. The longer reach to the "safe action" trigger can bring that on.

Relax your strong hand grip, strengthen your support hand grip. Put the center of the finger pad on the trigger. Focus on guiding the trigger straight back toward your nose when you squeeze the shot.

[Gumby]

I don't think I'm blinking. I focus on the front site and slowly increase the pressure on the trigger, trying to let the bang surprise me. I then see the gun kick up, and sometimes fall back down with sites aligned on target.

A highspeed monacle video camera would be useful. Actually, it would be neat to see what pros see while shooting.

I will have to plan another trip to the range within the next week. I will have to add "am I blinking" to the trouble shooting checklist.

Trouble shooting.

[Lee Bell]

Ditto on reading the sights. You absolutely MUST keep your eyes open and use the muzzle flash as a backlight to snap a mental picture of where the gun was aimed as it went off. I suspect you will be surprised......

You're the first person I've heard say this. I could not agree more. I'm about half way through licking exactly the same problem and the biggest and best step taken so far is to shoot with both eyes open. Somehow, having both eyes open, fools the subconscious gremlin that forces my finger to jerk.

7 o'clock is usually from trigger "yank", could be from milking also.

Or both.

To add to the very good suggestions already posted, I went out and bought some snap caps too. When I can find a volunteer, I have someone else load my magazines, putting snap caps in different order. When I have to do it myself, I load the magazines differently and jumble the mags before putting them in the gun.

Someone suggested to me that I load a different number of rounds each time. That didn't work. Even when fully concentrated, I don't miss the different feel of a slide that locks back instead of returning to battery.

Lee

[Flexmoney]

Relax your strong hand grip, strengthen your support hand grip. Put the center of the finger pad on the trigger. Focus on guiding the trigger straight back toward your nose when you squeeze the shot.

There it is.

+1