Ismi Guide Rod On G17 For Production?

[ysued]

That's not true and many board members and John Amidon have said so.

Interesting, can you please direct me to where was this published!!

The problem with Production and the rules is that the Board won't make up their minds what they want the division to be. Is it an entry division or a place for manufacturers to build better DA guns. Is it designed to bring in new sponsors or new shooters. I really don't care either way, but someone needs to make a dang decision before making arbitrary rules decisions that conflict each other.

Myself, I disagree with allowing to Mill-In Melted Bomars on Production guns, and the use of Drop & Offset Holsters, but guess what? I have to deal with it becaue they have both ben approved!!

I spent the weekend shooting with an Area Director from a different area and it's interesting to hear how different his opinion of what Production should be from my own and from my Area Directors.

Guess what, it happens!! But some concesus must be reached in order to go forward, and we must not let decisions we don't agree with turn us into obstructionist!!

As far as the guide rod issue goes, like I said, I don't care about the specific decision. My concern is the process that went into it.

For me it was simple!! I sent johnan E-mail, I roceded to Weigh, measure & Photograph the ISMI Guide Rod, sent the info to John!! He still wanted to test the actual unit, I sent him my ISMI Guide Rod, and he tested it!! He wrote back with the E-mail I publised!!

It is a externally visible change. The Vanek ruling was based solely on the visible change.

But at the same time you use a Tungsten Guide Rod on your 34, and just because you can't see it, you say it's legal!! This IMHO is not fair to G17 owners that expose the guide Rod tip!!

If John said that it was banned because it changes the mechanical advantage, fine, I have no problem with it. But based solely on the fact that he based it solely on the external change I don't understand what the difference is.

OK, there, you and I are in 100% agreement!! IMHO the reason the Vanek Part should have been for Both External and mechaincal reasons!! It competely changes the Operation of the Pistol, but then again, I'm not the person that makes thse decisions!! I just abide by them.

That said I also spent 10 minutes arguing in person with John on Saturday about his vertical foregrip interpretation. Which since it's not posted or listed anywhere is that Vertical foregrips are illegal in Limited and Tactical Divisions and if they're on at the beginning of the match in Open must stay on. Removing is subject to a DQ. This has no precedent and I know several shooters were using vert foregrips in these divisions having no idea of this new, "Rule".

Is this on an AR-15?? You lost me there!!

Y

Edited July 31, 2006 by ysued

[SRT Driver]

<Thread drift on>

The problem with Production and the rules is that the Board won't make up their minds what they want the division to be. Is it an entry division or a place for manufacturers to build better DA guns.

Why can't it do both? Where else can you shoot minor and be competitive or cheap or both?

Everyone still scores minor and it's more about skill than $$$. Some could win with a rusty P38 and others need the Sig X-5 AllAround. But this sport is full of whiners that feel cheated by the winners and look for excuses.

Is it designed to bring in new sponsors or new shooters..someone needs to make a dang decision before making arbitrary rules decisions that conflict each other.

Leave the rules more open ended and you can do both. No external mods except for sights, barrels, grip tape, finish and define external mods. Weight limit. Mods must maintain original side profile or something. Any mfgr produced part is usable. Minor. Ten rounds. Holster limits and position. What are internal mods? Define if changes to factory parts are OK.

Done. Go shoot.

It's still minor, 10 rounds and the Sig is still cheaper than a limited gun.

[Chuck Anderson]

OK, Yamil, you're a little lost. I don't shoot a 34 and I don't use a tungsten or other non stock guide rod. I shoot a G17 with Warren sight, Tru-Grip and a 3.5 lb connector. The only other mod is a reduced power striker spring giving it about a 4.5 pound trigger pull. If anyone wants to inspect my gun feel free.

As far as the rules not being open ended, I believe Bruce Gary used pretty much those specific words in the Vanek thread that just because it's not specifically listed doesn't make it legal. My understanding from conversations with him and several others was that the intent was to permit limited modifications including certain limited mods.

SRT and Yamil: As far as the rules and the intent of the division. To some degree they are mutually exclusive. If you want it to be a division where the manufacturers make guns designed around the division you get the H&K Combat Competition (With Jet Funnel), the Tanfoglio Custom Stock (with add on magwell) and the S&W PC5906. All are purpose built competition guns that the board and several members on this forum have complained about. They are also over $1000.00 ea. At the same time you have some people spending over $1000.00 on Glocks with mods, Sigs and Springfields. Not exactly what you would call an entry level division.

SRT: You have an opinion as to what Production should be. Cool. I do as well. And pretty much everyone else does to. However, the board, which makes the rules can't decide what they want. How can you make a set of rules for a division if you can't decide if it should be box stock, not even changing sights (The opinion of at least one board member) or a DA Limited gun in Minor which I've heard several people espouse.

[GeorgeInNePa]

If John said that it was banned because it changes the mechanical advantage, fine, I have no problem with it. But based solely on the fact that he based it solely on the external change I don't understand what the difference is.

OK, there, you and I are in 100% agreement!! IMHO the reason the Vanek Part should have been for Both External and mechaincal reasons!! It competely changes the Operation of the Pistol, but then again, I'm not the person that makes thse decisions!! I just abide by them.

ysued,

I've seen this in your posts and I have to call you on it. How exactly does relocating the pivot pin in the trigger bar "completely change the operation of the pistol"? Does it make it a single action pistol? Does it have a burst mode?

All it does is lower the amount of force required to cock and release the striker, that's it. It changes the fulcrum point.

Edited July 31, 2006 by GeorgeInNePa

[ysued]

ysued,

I've seen this in your posts and I have to call you on it. How exactly does relocating the pivot pin in the trigger bar "completely change the operation of the pistol"? Does it make it a single action pistol? Does it have a burst mode?

All it does is lower the amount of force required to cock and release the striker, that's it. It changes the fulcrum point.

My un-informed opinion is that if it doesn't come from the factory like that and if Gaston Glock didn't want it to work like that, it changes the way it was originially meant to work!!

Doesn't it??

Remember, I'm not gusnmith, I just have fun with the guns, and sometimes take pictures of them!!

This whole Vanek Issue would have been avoided if Vanek had submitted to NROI his prototype for approval!! If NROI had problems with it(like they did), he would have made the necessary modifications (like he did) and all the folks who purchased his trigger Initially wouldn't have gotten burned by the decision!! How simple is that??

Hey, I did that!! I wanted to use the ISMI Guyde Rod, and I got permission from the top!!

Edited July 31, 2006 by ysued

[ysued]

OK, Yamil, you're a little lost. I don't shoot a 34 and I don't use a tungsten or other non stock guide rod. I shoot a G17 with Warren sight, Tru-Grip and a 3.5 lb connector. The only other mod is a reduced power striker spring giving it about a 4.5 pound trigger pull. If anyone wants to inspect my gun feel free.

My Bad, it wasn't you that used the G34 and the Tungsten Rod!!

But The G34 has been spoken here as legal with a Tungsten rod just because it can't be seen!! IMHO, BS!!

Just because you can't see it???

As far as the rules not being open ended, I believe Bruce Gary used pretty much those specific words in the Vanek thread that just because it's not specifically listed doesn't make it legal. My understanding from conversations with him and several others was that the intent was to permit limited modifications including certain limited mods.

Agreed!! I bet they didn't mean Milling the crap out of a slide in order to Melt down a set of Bomar Sights either!!!

SRT and Yamil: As far as the rules and the intent of the division. To some degree they are mutually exclusive. If you want it to be a division where the manufacturers make guns designed around the division you get the H&K Combat Competition (With Jet Funnel), the Tanfoglio Custom Stock (with add on magwell) and the S&W PC5906. All are purpose built competition guns that the board and several members on this forum have complained about. They are also over $1000.00 ea. At the same time you have some people spending over $1000.00 on Glocks with mods, Sigs and Springfields. Not exactly what you would call an entry level division.

Yes!! YOu see where I'm coming from!!

SRT: You have an opinion as to what Production should be. Cool. I do as well. And pretty much everyone else does to. However, the board, which makes the rules can't decide what they want. How can you make a set of rules for a division if you can't decide if it should be box stock, not even changing sights (The opinion of at least one board member) or a DA Limited gun in Minor which I've heard several people espouse.

I agree with you there too!!

<Thread drift on>

The problem with Production and the rules is that the Board won't make up their minds what they want the division to be. Is it an entry division or a place for manufacturers to build better DA guns.

Why can't it do both? Where else can you shoot minor and be competitive or cheap or both?

Everyone still scores minor and it's more about skill than $$$. Some could win with a rusty P38 and others need the Sig X-5 AllAround. But this sport is full of whiners that feel cheated by the winners and look for excuses.

AMEN!! BTW, I have a not so rusty 1944 Mauser made P38 that I inherited from the Late Great Floyd Wine!! I should use it for production!! I have a feeling that Hitler met the Minimum manufacturing requirements..... In "ONE" morning!!

Is it designed to bring in new sponsors or new shooters..someone needs to make a dang decision before making arbitrary rules decisions that conflict each other.

Leave the rules more open ended and you can do both. No external mods except for sights, barrels, grip tape, finish and define external mods. Weight limit. Mods must maintain original side profile or something. Any mfgr produced part is usable. Minor. Ten rounds. Holster limits and position. What are internal mods? Define if changes to factory parts are OK.

Done. Go shoot.

It's still minor, 10 rounds and the Sig is still cheaper than a limited gun.

Yes!!!!!

Difine, Define, Define!!

Whend the final definitions are made and your gun does not meet these definitions... Get it back within specs and leave it alone!!

I think it's a genetic mutation that we all get when we start shooting IPSC!! It's this weird desire to tinker and mess with our guns!! We have to do something to them, as soon as we get them!! We just can't shoot a guns the way it comes fromt he factory! It's time we learned!!

Y

Edited July 31, 2006 by ysued

[SRT Driver]

Lawman,

We agree direction is needed.

The issue is that Production is a place for DA/SA, striker, etc guns shooting minor with 10 rounds. It is an entry level division since that is what most beginners have (or a Single Stack) Everyone is competitive. If that means that my definition is DA - Minor - Limited..so be it.

Let the mfgs come up with some cool stuff. More options are better.

[ysued]

Lawman,

We agree direction is needed.

The issue is that Production is a place for DA/SA, striker, etc guns shooting minor with 10 rounds. It is an entry level division since that is what most beginners have (or a Single Stack) Everyone is competitive. If that means that my definition is DA - Minor - Limited..so be it.

Let the mfgs come up with some cool stuff. More options are better.

Yes, Yes, Yes!!

I agree with you guys 100%

It's indeed an entry level division, but at the same time it's a place tht lets us old foggies in the game determine if we are really good enough without a Fancy $2K gun in our hands!!

I've done pretty good with my G17 (before the ISMI Rod) and to tell you the truth, I'm not good enouth to notice a darn bit of difference when I installed the Rod in the gun!! So, the thig doesn't give me a darn bit of competitive advantage, that I can notice that is!!

Y

[SRT Driver]

AMEN!! BTW, I have a not so rusty 1944 Mauser made P38 that I inherited from the late Great Floyd wine!! I should use it for production!! I have a feeling that Hitler met the Minimum manufacturing rewuirements..... In "ONE" morning!!

BTW, P-38's are on the list.

think it's a genetic mutation that we all get when we start shooting IPSC!! It's this weird desire to tinker and mess with our guns!! We have to do something to them, as soon as we get them!! We just can't shoot a guns the way it comes fromt he factory! It's time we learned!!

Have you ever had one that didn't need a little polish? Regardless of what Gaston says, Glocks are not perfect right out of the box. Opps, I commited heresy!!!

[ysued]

AMEN!! BTW, I have a not so rusty 1944 Mauser made P38 that I inherited from the late Great Floyd wine!! I should use it for production!! I have a feeling that Hitler met the Minimum manufacturing rewuirements..... In "ONE" morning!!

BTW, P-38's are on the list.

Hey, I love that gun!! I might shoot it next year!! I just need a few more mags, it only holds 8 rounds

think it's a genetic mutation that we all get when we start shooting IPSC!! It's this weird desire to tinker and mess with our guns!! We have to do something to them, as soon as we get them!! We just can't shoot a guns the way it comes fromt he factory! It's time we learned!!

Have you ever had one that didn't need a little polish? Regardless of what Gaston says, Glocks are not perfect right out of the box. Opps, I commited heresy!!!

Oh, I know that!! I believe in a little polish here & there

I just don't believe in turning your production gun into a Limited gun, and calling it minor modifications!!

[Chuck Anderson]

Don't agree with me 100%. I'm not picking a side in this battle. I don't really care whether it's DA Limited or Entry level. It's just not practical to call it both. What happens to the new shooter who comes to a match with his Production Glock 19 that his buddy told him would be fine to shoot and just as competetive as any other gun. First thing he sees is the local B class shooter walking around with a $1500.00 Springfield Limited gun, with downloaded .40 ammo, also shooting production. Kind of sends a mixed message.

I really don't think that stuff gives that much of an advantage. Looking at the top 4 from last year Production Nats. Two were using Glocks, a 34 and a 17. Both with a total of about $90.00 worth of work, combined. The other two were using a CZ's also with very little work done, little springs, a little polishing, and of course new sights. That's it.

As far as the Bo-Mars. There is a specific ruling, based on a specific rule in the Production Equipment rules. That I really don't have a problem with. It's the arbitrariness of the other decision that bugs me. And I guarantee that few if any other manufacturers submit their products to NROI for approval. For example, ISMI didn't either. I asked John about the Vanek months before he ruled and never got an answer. No email response, nothing till he posted the ruling. Sometimes you just can't win.

[ysued]

Don't agree with me 100%. I'm not picking a side in this battle. I don't really care whether it's DA Limited or Entry level. It's just not practical to call it both. What happens to the new shooter who comes to a match with his Production Glock 19 that his buddy told him would be fine to shoot and just as competetive as any other gun. First thing he sees is the local B class shooter walking around with a $1500.00 Springfield Limited gun, with downloaded .40 ammo, also shooting production. Kind of sends a mixed message.

AMEN!!! thgat is my problem too!!

Just make a darn decision!!

I don't really care either, but I would rather it be an entry lever division to attract more members!! Eventually those new members will want to move up to Limited, Single Stack or Open!! Jut give the new shooter a venue in which to play without the extra expense. My point is to KISS. This way the sport will grow, and in turn the industry will grow too!! If someone feels compelled to have Bomars, Early Vanek Triggers and more than 2 oz of crap attached to their guns, they can always Shoot Minor in Limited or in Limited 10!! My wish is to keep Production as a division to get new members interested in our sport. But again, like we have done in the past, we feel compelled to tinker away and take a basic Stock Class, and make it into an Equipment Race!! BTW, I include me in the "WE" part!! I'm just as guilty as the rest!! Hey, maybe like Nemo suggested to me earlier, let's divide production into 2 subdivisions, "STOCK & "MODIFIED"!!

I really don't think that stuff gives that much of an advantage. Looking at the top 4 from last year Production Nats. Two were using Glocks, a 34 and a 17. Both with a total of about $90.00 worth of work, combined. The other two were using a CZ's also with very little work done, little springs, a little polishing, and of course new sights. That's it.

Agreed too!! The ISMI Guide Rod is around $20.00, the Spring is $10.00, Heinies are $50.00, a 3.5 Lb Connector is $15.00, And finally True Grips are $24.00 for 3!! That's all you need!!

As far as the Bo-Mars. There is a specific ruling, based on a specific rule in the Production Equipment rules. That I really don't have a problem with. It's the arbitrariness of the other decision that bugs me. And I guarantee that few if any other manufacturers submit their products to NROI for approval. For example, ISMI didn't either. I asked John about the Vanek months before he ruled and never got an answer. No email response, nothing till he posted the ruling. Sometimes you just can't win.

On the Bomars, I have a feeling that it was an un-intended consequence of the Sight Replacement Ruling!! The ruling should have read "Repalce Sights using the Factory Dovetail" This goes directly to your first point of the guy with the Factory G19 and the guy with the Custom XD with $2K worth of custom work!! IMHO Bomars (or any other adjustable sights for that matter) are a disadvantage, (more moving parts to Break) a good set of Heines or Novaks will do the job right, once you sight in your gun, why do you need adjustable sights?? The sight Picture on the Heinie is as good as the Bomar.

On the ISMI Rod, I doubt that ISMI makde the Rod specifically for Production, he just did it. I took it upon myself to ask John for a determinations so I could use it on Production!! AFAIK, ISMI never claimed that the Rod was production legal.

And on the SS Guide Rod and the Original Vanek Trigger, there are specific Rulings on each!!! One no and one yes!! You don't agree with either, I happen to agree on both!!

Here we disagree!!

Y

Edited July 31, 2006 by ysued

[Nemo]

Vanek (old) trigger: done deal

ISMI guide rod: done deal

Production division rules: Need BETTER DEFINITIONS! What is an external or an internal modification? Should we ask for a list so we don't have to struggle with the specifically allowed or prohibited issue every time? If a list is what would solve this, then let's have one of what's prohibited (me thinks it would be shorter) and leave nothing to interpretation, hunches or the hairs on the back of our necks.

WHAT IS IT THAT PRODUCTION SHOOTERS WANT? I haven't shot production in more than a year but I know I'll be back one day if I ever get bored with the revo, but I'm having TOO MUCH FUN! Do you want an "Out of the box" division or a "Minor-DA-10-round Ltd" division. Those are the two extremes and I don't like either one.

Production, an entry level division: WRONG!! There are entry level shooters, not divisions. Maybe the initial idea for the division was to attract to the game those shooters that were intimidated by the open and limited blasters. Well, it's been here for a while now and it's visible, so no more intimidation. There's a place for almost everyone in our lil' kingdom.

It is completely Ok for Shooter X to show up at a his first match with his box-stock G17, plastic sights, guide rod and 5lb connector and a bunch of 10-round mags. Provided his Uncle Mike's holster and pouches are in the right place and are of the approved variation he should be good to go. Then Shooter Y is a D-class shooter that has been around for almost a year. He shows with his not so stock G34, DIY trigger job w/ 3.5lb connector (even a Sotelo kit), Dawson Adj. rear, Dawson FO front, Tru-Grip, ISMI guide rod with 13lb spring. His DOH where it should be and his 771's behind the hip bone too, and he has a bunch of hi-cap mags loaded with 10-rounds only.

Both are entry level shooters with production legal guns and gear. Shooter X has entry level equipment, he could keep it like that or evolve as he learns. Then again he can do the same within open or limited divisions also. For skill level there's the classification system, not the divisions.

Production is a bona-fide division with room for modifications to the shooters guns and gear, although less than in limited or open. Production is part of the game and as such players will wanna do stuff to the gear to gain that edge we all want but seem to find in different ways. It is not the best place to try and be a purist. Sorry Yamil, you wanna be a purist be a collector of UNFIRED guns, if you wanna play practical shooting, evolve with the game.

So what do we do? Request better defined rules. As stated before, for Production we need better defined do's and dont's.

Maybe a list of approved after-market parts could start with what we already have with some changes:

1- Post&Notch Sights, provided they fit in the original cuts (it may be too late for this one)

2- Guide rods

3- Grips

4- Barrels of the same original length

I'm sure there are more.

And a list of prohibited mods. In my opinion prohibited mods should be those that

1- change the internal and external profile of the gun's major componensts (frame and slide), for example the milling of the slide to melt bomars, if not provided from the factory (again it may be to late for this one) or to add or remove weight to the gun.

2- change the mechanics of the gun's action, as designed (like relocating pins)

Keep the holster and mags location, the power factor and the 10-round limit and all else is game. Take it from here guys, scribe the new rules you want to see and send them up the chain.

My purist friend doesn't like them, he can always take up cowboy action shooting.

Seems like our buddy The Flex already had the idea of modification to the production rules. Read al about it HERE!. Maybe our comments on the rest of the rules should go there.

Edited July 31, 2006 by Nemo

[ysued]

Vanek (old) trigger: done deal

ISMI guide rod: done deal

Yup, like I said on my post!! Done deal!!

Production division rules: Need BETTER DEFINITIONS! What is an external or an internal modification? Should we ask for a list so we don't have to struggle with the specifically allowed or prohibited issue every time? If a list is what would solve this, then let's have one of what's prohibited (me thinks it would be shorter) and leave nothing to interpretation, hunches or the hairs on the back of our necks.

Amen Brother Nemo!! No more guessing and assumptions!!

WHAT IS IT THAT PRODUCTION SHOOTERS WANT? I haven't shot production in more than a year but I know I'll be back one day if I ever get bored with the revo, but I'm having TOO MUCH FUN! Do you want an "Out of the box" division or a "Minor-DA-10-round Ltd" division. Those are the two extremes and I don't like either one.

And I agree here too!!

A very good happy medium can be rached without going to extremes!!

Production, an entry level division: WRONG!! There are entry level shooters, not divisions. Maybe the initial idea for the division was to attract to the game those shooters that were intimidated by the open and limited blasters. Well, it's been here for a while now and it's visible, so no more intimidation. There's a place for almost everyone in our lil' kingdom.

YESSSSSS!!

But like you said, the extreme of a Limited, DA, 10 Round Class, will indeed intimidate new guys, just like Limited and Open does!!

It is completely Ok for Shooter X to show up at a his first match with his box-stock G17, plastic sights, guide rod and 5lb connector and a bunch of 10-round mags. Provided his Uncle Mike's holster and pouches are in the right place and are of the approved variation he should be good to go. Then Shooter Y is a D-class shooter that has been around for almost a year. He shows with his not so stock G34, DIY trigger job w/ 3.5lb connector (even a Sotelo kit), Dawson Adj. rear, Dawson FO front, Tru-Grip, ISMI guide rod with 13lb spring. His DOH where it should be and his 771's behind the hip bone too, and he has a bunch of hi-cap mags loaded with 10-rounds only.

Both are entry level shooters with production legal guns and gear. Shooter X has entry level equipment, he could keep it like that or evolve as he learns. Then again he can do the same within open or limited divisions also. For skill level there's the classification system, not the divisions.

100% in agreement here too!!

When the new shooter gets to shooting, and gets hooked, he will modify his pistol within the rules!! The more specific rules!!

You are so eloquent!! I wish I was PuertoRican!! Oh, I forgot, I am!!

Production is a bona-fide division with room for modifications to the shooters guns and gear, although less than in limited or open. Production is part of the game and as such players will wanna do stuff to the gear to gain that edge we all want but seem to find in different ways. It is not the best place to try and be a purist. Sorry Yamil, you wanna be a purist be a collector of UNFIRED guns, if you wanna play practical shooting, evolve with the game.

I'm not that much of a purist!! I believe in modifications, I don't believe in a Limited, SA 10 round, Milled-in Melted Bomars and 1.98oz of extra crap division!! A happy medium can be reached!!

So what do we do? Request better defined rules. As stated before, for Production we need better defined do's and dont's.

Maybe a list of approved after-market parts could start with what we already have with some changes:

1- Post&Notch Sights, provided they fit in the original cuts (it may be too late for this one)

2- Guide rods

3- Grips

4- Barrels of the same original length

I'm sure there are more.

Agree with all of the above!!

And a list of prohibited mods. In my opinion prohibited mods should be those that

1- change the internal and external profile of the gun's major componensts (frame and slide), for example the milling of the slide to melt bomars, if not provided from the factory (again it may be to late for this one) or to add or remove weight to the gun.

2- change the mechanics of the gun's action, as designed (like relocating pins)

Keep the holster and mags location, the power factor and the 10-round limit and all else is game. Take it from here guys, scribe the new rules you want to see and send them up the chain.

Agree 100% mano!! Blelieve you me, you and me are in 100% agreement, you are just more eloquent than me!! Must me that Colegio Ponceno Edumication!!

My purist friend doesn't like them, he can always take up cowboy action shooting.

Sure, make your load your 147gr 9mm's with 3.8 Gr of Cream of Wheat, and if you want to go faster throw a magnum Primer into the Mix!!

Seems like our buddy The Flex already had the idea of modification to the production rules. Read al about it HERE!. Maybe our comments on the rest of the rules should go there.

Or maybe not!!

Edited July 31, 2006 by ysued

[ihatepickles]

I'm glad people are pushing USPSA to define Production better. The current rules have created a rift in the division and it really would be better if these ambiguities are clarified.

But...

There is still no ruling from the USPSA on replacement guiderods that a visibly different from the stock rods. John A's opinion in an email is not a ruling. Whether this opinion is written into USPSA rules remains to be seen.

I think Production will forever carry the stigma of the Vanek ruling in light of the buried Bomars and externally visible replacement guiderods. These discrepancies are so broad that the rules governing the division are keeping real innovation from occurring. The fix as many people have stated is to define the Production division. Intent is very hard to guess.

Oh, and I saw many mentions that a G34 replacement guiderod isn't externally visible. This is wrong in most cases, as there are long guiderods designed for the G34/G35 that are clearly visible at the muzzle (the stock guiderod length isn't visible, however).

[ihatepickles]

As a followup.

I send John A. a request to issue an Official NROI Ruling on the guiderod issue. He replied they'd add it to the discussions at the BOD meeting next week.

USPSA should issue an official yes/no soon.

[driver8M3]

the NROI ruling has now been posted.

http://www.uspsa.org/rules/nroi_rulings.ph...dit&indx=25

[ysued]

the NROI ruling has now been posted.

http://www.uspsa.org/rules/nroi_rulings.ph...dit&indx=25

Thanks!!

I don't shoot my G17 on PD Anymore, I shoot M&P9, and the Factory setup is perfect, so far with the ammo I'm using, so, if it ain't broken, I ain't going to fix it!!

Y

[Singlestack Wonder]

fyou wanted to be senaky you could put a Glock Guide Rod Cap on a tungsten Rod and nobody would notice!!

The allowing of tungsten guide rods was the start of the equipment race in Production. While USPSA is currently adopting some rule changes that are very similair to IDPA, perhaps for Production division IDPA's SSP division rules would eliminate the equipment race.

[ysued]

The allowing of tungsten guide rods was the start of the equipment race in Production. While USPSA is currently adopting some rule changes that are very similair to IDPA, perhaps for Production division IDPA's SSP division rules would eliminate the equipment race.

Equipment Race is good..... In Open and Limited!!! Not in Production!!

I agree with you.

I don't want tougher rules, I want clearer rules with closed Loopholes!!

And no interim changes to the rules until they get revised again!!

The only changes made to the rules should be to the Approved Gun List everytime a new gun comes out and it gets added to the list!! No more changing, no more "I want a Ruling from Amidon because I want to use this Trinket"

That in itself should fix most of the problems we have right now!!