Bigbadaboom Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 The stage procedure states: Upon start signal, from Box A, engage only PP1, PP2, T1, and T2 from left side of barricade, make a mandatory reload, and from Box A, engage only PP3, PP4, T3, and T4 from the right side of barricade. Competitor may begin on either side of the barricade. It's pretty clear that a mandatory reload must be made and after that reload the shooter must engage the targets on the opposite side. The procedure does not allow the engagement of targets missed from the first side of the barracade after the mandatory reload prior to engaging the targets required after the reload. After the reload to reengage the missed steel the shooter should have perfomed the mandatory reload prior to changing sides as outlined in the stage procedure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omnia1911 Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 (edited) The stage procedure states: Upon start signal, from Box A, engage only PP1, PP2, T1, and T2 from left side of barricade, make a mandatory reload, and from Box A, engage only PP3, PP4, T3, and T4 from the right side of barricade. Competitor may begin on either side of the barricade. The procedure does not allow the engagement of targets missed from the first side of the barracade after the mandatory reload prior to engaging the targets required after the reload. Where in the stage procedures does it say this? If we follow your strict contructionist view, we would be required, according to the written stage procedure, to engage the targets in left array as PP1 then PP2 then T1 then T2, no other order would be allowed; same idea for the right array. Otherwise, you would get a penalty for not following the written course description. Edited March 15, 2006 by omnia1911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbadaboom Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 The stage procedure states: Upon start signal, from Box A, engage only PP1, PP2, T1, and T2 from left side of barricade, make a mandatory reload, and from Box A, engage only PP3, PP4, T3, and T4 from the right side of barricade. Competitor may begin on either side of the barricade. The procedure does not allow the engagement of targets missed from the first side of the barracade after the mandatory reload prior to engaging the targets required after the reload. Where in the stage procedures does it say this? If we follow your strict contructionist view, we would be required, according to the written stage procedure, to engage the targets in left array as PP1 then PP2 then T1 then T2, no other order would be allowed; same idea for the right array. Otherwise, you would get a penalty for not following the written course description. eggzackly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omnia1911 Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 The stage procedure states: Upon start signal, from Box A, engage only PP1, PP2, T1, and T2 from left side of barricade, make a mandatory reload, and from Box A, engage only PP3, PP4, T3, and T4 from the right side of barricade. Competitor may begin on either side of the barricade. The procedure does not allow the engagement of targets missed from the first side of the barracade after the mandatory reload prior to engaging the targets required after the reload. Where in the stage procedures does it say this? If we follow your strict contructionist view, we would be required, according to the written stage procedure, to engage the targets in left array as PP1 then PP2 then T1 then T2, no other order would be allowed; same idea for the right array. Otherwise, you would get a penalty for not following the written course description. eggzackly. As I stated in earlier posts, it is a comstock stage. In comstock stages, even classifiers, you cannot dictate the order of target engagement in an array, nor the number of rounds fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 The stage procedure states: Upon start signal, from Box A, engage only PP1, PP2, T1, and T2 from left side of barricade, make a mandatory reload, and from Box A, engage only PP3, PP4, T3, and T4 from the right side of barricade. Competitor may begin on either side of the barricade. It's pretty clear that a mandatory reload must be made and after that reload the shooter must engage the targets on the opposite side. The procedure does not allow the engagement of targets missed from the first side of the barracade after the mandatory reload prior to engaging the targets required after the reload. After the reload to reengage the missed steel the shooter should have perfomed the mandatory reload prior to changing sides as outlined in the stage procedure. Nope. This stage procedure basically says, "Shoot the two poppers and two papers from the right side of the barricade, make one required reload, and shoot the two poppers and two papers from the other side of the barricade, and you can't shoot the right hand targets from the left hand side and vice-versa." This is a comstock stage, order of engagement is not allowed to be specified--you can shoot at them in any order. And, I guess I'll have to disagree with John and say that once you have shot at or "engaged" the right number of targets from the correct side of the barricade, and made a reload, you are good to go. No penalty. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omnia1911 Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 The stage procedure states: Upon start signal, from Box A, engage only PP1, PP2, T1, and T2 from left side of barricade, make a mandatory reload, and from Box A, engage only PP3, PP4, T3, and T4 from the right side of barricade. Competitor may begin on either side of the barricade. It's pretty clear that a mandatory reload must be made and after that reload the shooter must engage the targets on the opposite side. The procedure does not allow the engagement of targets missed from the first side of the barracade after the mandatory reload prior to engaging the targets required after the reload. After the reload to reengage the missed steel the shooter should have perfomed the mandatory reload prior to changing sides as outlined in the stage procedure. Nope. This stage procedure basically says, "Shoot the two poppers and two papers from the right side of the barricade, make one required reload, and shoot the two poppers and two papers from the other side of the barricade, and you can't shoot the right hand targets from the left hand side and vice-versa." This is a comstock stage, order of engagement is not allowed to be specified--you can shoot at them in any order. And, I guess I'll have to disagree with John and say that once you have shot at or "engaged" the right number of targets from the correct side of the barricade, and made a reload, you are good to go. No penalty. Troy Give that man a promotion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.40AET Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 It's pretty clear that a mandatory reload must be made and after that reload the shooter must engage the targets on the opposite side. Sorry BBB I have to disagree. The stage description does not say anything about "after that reload the shooter must engage the targets on the opposite side". Once you engage the targets on the starting side of the baracade you must perform a mandatory reload. It doesn't say anything about shooting at them some more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 And, I guess I'll have to disagree with John and say that once you have shot at or "engaged" the right number of targets from the correct side of the barricade, and made a reload, you are good to go. No penalty.Troy I'm with Troy on this one. If the COF said: Upon start signal, from Box A, engage only PP1, PP2, T1, and T2 from left side of barricade, make a mandatory reload, THEN from Box A, engage only PP3, PP4, T3, and T4 from the right side of barricade. it would be a different matter. THEN implies order...AND implies inclusion/addition. JA even addressed something similar prior to 03-01 Ducks In A Barrel getting tossed out. He basically stated "THEN" implied order of engagement (there by stopping people from playing games regarding the order of engagement of the steel and paper targets). I guess it just get down to....just because he's JA...doesn't make him right! However he is most of the time....just not this time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 Crap...I thought I responded to this, but I had to run out and the computer took a dump on me. I haven't really been following this thread, nor read it...so, I'm come with a somewhat fresh perspective.. - Comstock course...makeup shots can be taken at anytime. - Procedure dictates...with the words "only"...which targets can be engaged from which sides - Procedure requires a mandatory reload - Procedure allows for starting on either side. - The word "then" is not in the procedure...a pretty important fact, IMO 1. The shooter engaged the proper targets from the proper sides. No penalty there. 2. The shooter performed the mandatory reload. No penalty there. If we read into it and say that the shooter was to engage one side...reload...then engage the other side...well, the shooter is still covered, because they did, in fact, do the engaging. There is nothing in this procedure that stipulates when, only where. If the word "then" had been used, then there would be basis for a penalty or penalties (depending on the wording). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bwana Six-Gun Posted March 17, 2006 Author Share Posted March 17, 2006 Well I had no idea the can of worms I opened when I started this thread. From all the posts it is apparent that there are differing opinions on how it should be shot and scored. This includes differing opinions from both Troy and John (both of whom train RO's). Also on several other threads, it is obvious that the Revolver shooters face a unique challenge in shooting many of the classifiers, since they were not designed to be shot by a wheel-gun and while we all shoot with the same handicap, (6 rounds) there are many ways to interpret what is the correct way to shoot a stage. Perhaps the best thing to do is let this thread die a natural death and hope that in the future the classifiers are improved to consider all divisions when the are designed and the stage procedure is written. Off the top of my head, I can think of a couple of things that they could do as a quick fix. One, have an addendum to the stage procedure specifically for revolvers saying when and where the mandatory reloads are required. Two, have something in there stating that if there is no competitive advantage gained, then there is no penalty for a Revolver shooter if the reloads are made out of order. This last one may open another can of worms, but it is not intentional. Thanks to all the folks who gave their opinions on this one and now let's just let it die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 No worries here. This thread is a great example of people "discussing" an issue...in a discussion forum. We do that so we may learn. We don't all have to agree. But, like here, we can have a polite chat about an issue. (Now, I need to read the whole thread and see who is wrong and who agreed with ME! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbadaboom Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 (edited) I still stand the same on this issue but I will state that the procedure can be ambiguous. In this case the way the procedure reads is a problem. When we have two NROI Instructors with differing opinions on a Classifier procedure I feel that the procedure needs closer examination. Edited March 17, 2006 by Bigbadaboom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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