Kaskillo Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Post # 18 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=195272 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 You ever get it working to trim it all in one pass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brassaholic13 Posted June 28, 2014 Author Share Posted June 28, 2014 Yes, and no. Yes, you can trim it in one pass. No, it's not the right way to do it, and here's why. At some point the case has to be full length resized. You can either do it with a .223 die set before the cut, or a .300 blackout after the cut. Either way, it has to be done. In the resizing process, there are a few variables. How much lube is on the case? Are the cases clean, or did you lube dirty? How out of spec are the cases? The answer is it really doesn't matter, because you cannot control any of the variables. These variables all come down to friction. The press has flex. It may be minor, but it IS there. The combination of friction and flex will keep the cases from being cut uniformly in length. I can even see these minor differences in friction and flex with swaging and depriming. So, yes, you can do it, no it's not practical because you have a huge variation in length due to friction/flex. Like I've said prior, I have the CH4D, GSI (both rough/trim) and Whidden dies. I prefer the Whidden. What die you prefer to use, and what process you decide to convert the brass in is up to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 (edited) So at what "start" length are you able to get consistant results for final length? Said another way, if the cases were cut to "x.xxx" they will come out of the machine ready to go consistantly, 100%? Do you think dwell time has anything to do with it? The lever style has a lot more dwell than the rotary, in that the action at either end takes longer and movement is accelerated between the two. A rotary is a more constant motion. Edited June 29, 2014 by jmorris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reloader901 Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 (edited) Actually, my counter is on the case collator. The switch is for safety. ..... Additionally, if you notice the wiring continuing up to the tool head, there's a continuity check on the decapping pin. .... Another safety switch is above the toolhead ..... The final safety switch is part of the VFD. ..... Let me guess. You're an engineer? My best friend is an engineer. He over-thinks stuff, but when I need help with understanding or designing something he is the guy I have called for the past 35 years Edited June 29, 2014 by reloader901 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brassaholic13 Posted June 29, 2014 Author Share Posted June 29, 2014 So at what "start" length are you able to get consistant results for final length? Said another way, if the cases were cut to "x.xxx" they will come out of the machine ready to go consistantly, 100%? Do you think dwell time has anything to do with it? The lever style has a lot more dwell than the rotary, in that the action at either end takes longer and movement is accelerated between the two. A rotary is a more constant motion. The length I trim to is irrelevant because the frictional coefficient in the die may be different than yours. Additionally, your end mill or carbide insert may be different. RPM may be different. Keep lowering the trimmer on the fine threads until you start getting case spin. Then back it off 1/2 turn. That's how much you can trim off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brassaholic13 Posted June 29, 2014 Author Share Posted June 29, 2014 Actually, my counter is on the case collator. The switch is for safety. ..... Additionally, if you notice the wiring continuing up to the tool head, there's a continuity check on the decapping pin. .... Another safety switch is above the toolhead ..... The final safety switch is part of the VFD. ..... Let me guess. You're an engineer? My best friend is an engineer. He over-thinks stuff, but when I need help with understanding or designing something he is the guy I have called for the past 35 years No, I'm an ex-purchasing manager that has drag raced and tinkered with machinery for decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) So at what "start" length are you able to get consistant results for final length? Said another way, if the cases were cut to "x.xxx" they will come out of the machine ready to go consistantly, 100%? Do you think dwell time has anything to do with it? The lever style has a lot more dwell than the rotary, in that the action at either end takes longer and movement is accelerated between the two. A rotary is a more constant motion. The length I trim to is irrelevant because the frictional coefficient in the die may be different than yours. Additionally, your end mill or carbide insert may be different. RPM may be different. Keep lowering the trimmer on the fine threads until you start getting case spin. Then back it off 1/2 turn. That's how much you can trim off. I'll be honest and say I don't own any of the 221fireball necked up to .308 rounds but have been commissioned to build a machine to rough cut cases to length so they can be final trimmed (around 2500/hr) and interested in your modification if it could be made to trim in one pass.Looks like its a no go though. Just gathering information, no need to reinvent the wheel, if it could be done simply. Friction will be different with every case, a little, if the machine cannot over come that difference there is little point in going down that road. Thank you for sharing what you have learned. Edited June 30, 2014 by jmorris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brassaholic13 Posted June 30, 2014 Author Share Posted June 30, 2014 I'm fairly confident in saying that the 1050 can rough cut to 2500/hr. Right now, I'm running 22/60 sprockets, which is a 0.367 reduction. The motor is 1735 RPM with a 20:1 gear reduction. That's 1910 RPH. I'm going to test changing to 22/54 later this week, which is a 0.407 reduction. That brings it up to 2118 RPH. It's just a matter of time before I get it to the desired RPH. A little more testing here and there.... Speed is addicting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Oh, I know they can run that fast, the machine I sent you photos of the motor has ran 4200 rounds per hour processing brass. Only problem I see is having to make several passes trimming to get good results. I don't understand all of the sprocket changing, did you not get a VFD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaskillo Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) I am going to try 22/48...shooting for 2500/hr Edited June 30, 2014 by Kaskillo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brassaholic13 Posted July 1, 2014 Author Share Posted July 1, 2014 Oh, I know they can run that fast, the machine I sent you photos of the motor has ran 4200 rounds per hour processing brass. Only problem I see is having to make several passes trimming to get good results. I don't understand all of the sprocket changing, did you not get a VFD? Yes, but I like to run the VFD at max because the electric motor runs cooler. Your bigger issue on the faster rate is going to be the case collator. From what I can discern, it maxes out at about 2200, stock. If you're shooting for 2500, and have run 4800, then you must be using a different collator, or different collator motor on a Dillon collator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Only reason it would run cooler would be because the fan on the back would be turning faster. Seems like less work to add a fan than always changing sprockets. Did you windup using the same motor that I used? I never had any problems with it getting too hot and other than pistol case prep it never runs at 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brassaholic13 Posted July 1, 2014 Author Share Posted July 1, 2014 Yes, 3 of them. One for my 650 press, one for the 1050, and another for another 1050 I plan on buying. So how are you making the Dillon collator keep up with 2500+/hr? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 (edited) I didn't do anything to the last one I set up. This is a video around 4200/hr, much faster than that the case feed device into the shell plate has problems. Never had to wait on the case feeder. This is the one I sent you the motor information on. Don't have any videos of an auto drive loading rifle cases but here is one I took loading .223 at a rate around 2400/hr, again with a stock collator. The drive on this one costs too much, over time. Edited July 2, 2014 by jmorris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 (edited) Are you putting too many cases in the hopper and causing the clutch to slip? I took a plastic cup and marked two lines inside. One is the height of 100 bullets, the other 100 cases (you have to waist a different cup for each round). I just fill it up To the correct line and add it to the correct collator right before I add primers. I know you can load them down and tighten the clutch and make them work with several hundred cases at a time but that is certainly going to be harder on the collator motor than reducing the auto drive motors speed with a VFD and they will be very slow carrying the extra weight. Edited July 2, 2014 by jmorris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brassaholic13 Posted July 2, 2014 Author Share Posted July 2, 2014 (edited) I must have something wrong then with 3 case feeders. My 650 auto drive on 9mm will out run the case feeder, no matter how much or little I put in it, at 2200 rounds per hour, that's using the small pistol plate. That's running the 650 at 30hz, which is mechanically as fast as that auto-drive will run due to controlling reciprocating weight on the auto-drive's pivot system (similar to PW). I have a custom made brass sorter that the motor runs at a fixed 3600 rounds per hour, and the collator can't keep up, so there's the second collator. The third collator on the 1050, barely keeps up with 1900/hr rate. I put maybe three single handfuls of brass into the collators. So, about 1.5 lbs of rifle brass. *edit* Maybe I need to put a 3-phase and VFD on the collator, lol. *endedit* Edited July 2, 2014 by Brassaholic13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 (edited) I wound up building my own collator for the brass sorter I built. It is not unlike a Dillon just super sized. This is it on the first run. This is it after I added some more aluminum. Back to the Dillon collators, I just tested two of my collators, both are the newer round funnel style. The small plate 9mm collator on low dropped 38 cases in 30 seconds ~ 4560 per hour doing the math. On high it only dropped 26 in 30 seconds, 3120/hr. The 45 large plate dropped 22 in 30, 2640/hr on low and 29 in 30 on high, 3480/hr. What rate are you getting out of yours? Edited July 2, 2014 by jmorris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brassaholic13 Posted July 2, 2014 Author Share Posted July 2, 2014 I'm at work, so I can't tell you the pistol rates, we only do rifle here. The small rifle plate has 12 slots. On high, it spins at 5 RPM, unloaded. Doing the math, that's 60*5=300 Rounds per minute, or 1800 rounds per hour. That's also assuming 100% fill rate on each slot. So how do you figure you're going to get 2500 rounds per hour from a .300 BLK collator using the small rifle plate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 (edited) Doing the math, that's 60*5=300 Rounds per minute, or 1800 rounds per hour.300 rounds a minute would be blazing! That would be 18,000 rounds an hour!Would the math be more accurate at 12 cases dropped at 5 rpm for an hour be 12 (cases dropped) x 5 (times a minute) x 60 (minutes in a hour) = 3600 cases per hour? I would say you have a problem of you can only drop 1800 an hour but you won't know unless you take a minute (or half of one) to measure what yours will do. I just tested my.223 collator (again the newer round funnel style) and it dropped 24 in 30 seconds. 24x2= 48 a minute, x 60 of them an hour = 2880 an hour. Mine looks like it is running closer to 4.5 rpm on high though vs 5. If it never skipped a case it would put out 3240/hr but I never design things for "best case". Edited July 2, 2014 by jmorris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brassaholic13 Posted July 2, 2014 Author Share Posted July 2, 2014 I'll do it at earliest opportunity (and yes, my math was off), but on my sorter, which checks for shell quality, not type, the sorter (not collator) motor runs at 60 RPM and the collator doesn't keep up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 (edited) Yeah, I learned instantly that my sorter would far out run a Dillon collator. IIRC it will sort a 5 gallon bucket of brass in 15 min, many times the output you would get from a dillon collator that is why I built the one in post #43. What is your sorter checking? Any info on that machine or how it works? If it only checked 1 case per rev that would be 3600/hr and my Dillon rifle collator wouldn't keep up either. Edited July 2, 2014 by jmorris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brassaholic13 Posted July 2, 2014 Author Share Posted July 2, 2014 Yeah, I learned instantly that my sorter would far out run a Dillon collator. IIRC it will sort a 5 gallon bucket of brass in 15 min, many times the output you would get from a dillon collator, that is why I built the one in post #43. What is your sorter checking? Any info on that machine or how it works? If it only checked 1 case per rev that would be 3600/hr and my Dillon rifle collator wouldn't keep up either. Uses a no-go gauge to check the case mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 (edited) Do you have any photos or video of how it works? Edited July 2, 2014 by jmorris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brassaholic13 Posted July 3, 2014 Author Share Posted July 3, 2014 Do you have any photos or video of how it works? Nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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