Rifle Noob

[splashdown]

So I've been wanting to learn how to shoot rifles. Not sure why yet other than to learn a new skill. Mostly want to punch paper, ring steel, and possibly hunt deer (have a friend who hunts and is eager to get more guys out there). I grew up shooting only handguns and that's been it for the last 23 or so years.

I've been playing with the demo at shooterready.com and watching Ryan Cleckner (NSSF) on youtube as well as "The Road to Precision" on youtube.

After all of this "book learning" on the ultranet, I now have a Remington 700 LTR in .308 on the way from Remington (bought the certificate here in the classifieds). I already have a crappy scope that I will use for the first couple of outings until I can afford something better.

So here's what I think this learning process will be like:

1. Mount the scope and adjust/fit it to me. I have a 20MOA rail, blackhawk cheek pad and 6-9" bipod on the way.

2. Get some factory ammo, probably Black Hills, zero the scope and shoot some groups at 100yd. Get comfortable behind the rifle, learn the trigger, etc.

3. Get better scope. Looking at the Vortex Viper HS 4-16x44. Would love one of the Viper PST 4-16x50 FFP's, but there's no money for that right now. I might even wait until our annual bonus around Thanksgiving before making a scope purchase.

4. Get reloading gear. I have a 30% discount cert from Hornady that I plan to use before the end of the year. I think I'll get the single stage Lock n Load kit that retails for about $380, or about $270 after discount. Don't really have the money for a 550 or 650.

5. Start working up a load and go through the ladder testing I've read about to see what load the rifle "likes". Understand that this will be after I can hold a precise group on demand.

6. After settling on a load, map the rifle's trajectory, or "drop" at various distances.

7. Learn to read wind and shoot from prone, kneeling, offhand, etc.

At my pace, I think I'll get to number 6 in about 4 years, . Number 7 may never come, who knows. I need a good coach and shooting partner to speed up my learning process.

Is there anything I'm missing here? Anything out of order?

I only reload .40S&W on a Square Deal. I have loaded some 9mm. I know nothing about loading for rifle. I've been reading up as much as I can here and I think I'll go through my ABC's of Reloading book and pay more attention to the rifle sections this time. I'm seeing topics such as full length sizing vs. neck sizing and trimming and all this case prep that I know nothing about.

Help a noob out. Any tips?

[Dirty Rod]

Good plan although Black Hills match grade ammo runs $1.20 a round so getting into reloading will allow you to shoot more. My 175gr loads run me about $.56 per round buying components in bulk so you would make up a $400 investment for a single stage in just over a case. I have a few friends that put out some really consistent precision ammo on 550s but I've never tried loading .308 on my 550. Since you have experience loading it wouldn't take you too long to come up with a load since youve obviously researched work ups and ladder testing. The biggest difference is case prep and the ABCs go through that in a lot of detail. FL sizing vs neck sizing is one of those debates that will rage like barrel break in procedures.

Make sure your crappy scope will at least hold zero. You don't want to be trying to learn the fundamentals while your zero is shifting. Also don't forget good mounts. Cheap rings and bases are almost as frustrating as a bad scope.

You are right on number 7. Positional shooting kills my match scores every time.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Dirty Rod

[splashdown]

Thanks. Can you tell I'm an engineer? I have to have a well thought out process in mind before taking the first step.

What's the best bang for your buck factory ammo to get started with? I want something that will yield good brass for future reloading. I read somewhere that Black Hills was good.

Edited May 25, 2012 by splashdown

[Dirty Rod]

Thanks. Can you tell I'm an engineer? I have to have a well thought out process in mind before taking the first step.

What's the best bang for your buck factory ammo to get started with? I want something that will yield good brass for future reloading. I read somewhere that Black Hills was good.

Understood. As a 26 year IT veteran I an appreciate a good plan.

FGMM is usually a little cheaper in my experience but BH is good and shot better out of my rifle. I would suggest buying a box of several and heading down to the range to figure out what shoots the best. My 700 actually shot Remington Match the best but that ran $4 more per box than FGMM, BH, and Hornady. Lots of people like Amax but it shot like crap out of my gun.

Once you find one that shoots well then you can work up something that shoots as well or better. I just started by using the same bullet, match primers, and working up the same velocity with accuracy. I didn't know about the ladder test when I started so it probably took me 4 months and 150 rounds to work up the right load. You should get there a lot faster figuring out the ogive and OAL first and then using the ladder test to find your powder. I've seen people these days figure out a load in 15-20 rounds.

[Graham Smith]

You are taking on quite a bit here. First off, let me suggest that you visit Sniper Central forum. This forum is a fairly low key bunch of people focused on just exactly what you are asking about here. In particular, read the posts from Nate and Shane (the reason will become obvious fairly quickly).

I'll touch on optics first. Unless you need a mil-dot scope for range estimations and the like, there is no real point in getting one. Range finders are a much better tool most of the time. But regardless, you need to first define what kind of distance you are going to be shooting at before picking a scope. Typically, a scope is going to run you anywhere between 50% -200% of the cost of the rifle. But there are some bargains to be had. You'll find more info than you can digest at the forum I suggested. And don't overlook a simple 10x scope as a place to start.

In general, you will find that the best solution for loading for precision rifle is to get a single stage or turret press. They can be had fairly inexpensively and will allow you to load much more consistent ammo. The expensive part of reloading is the shipping costs associated with primers and powder. See if you can find a local gun store that can get you the powder you want.

As for factory ammo, there is no such thing as inexpensive .308 ammo - at least nothing I would want to shoot in a bolt action. Again, check the forum for advise on this.

Above all else, find someplace you can shoot and find some experienced shooters to shoot with. If you can find a place where you can get a couple days of instruction, you will benefit from it greatly.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Graham Smith

[kdhill]

Another great forum for long range precision shooting is "snipers hide", they have some great "stickies" on reloading and brass prep. I personally do all my rifle reloading on a single stage Rock Chucker, with the different brass prepping stages. I really dont see the need for a progressive or multi stage press for precision rifle, especially when you need to weigh each charge out by hand (consistency is the key).

Right now I am shooting a Rem 700 PPS that I have mounted in a B&C Medalist stock, I did not like the HS stock it came with, the palm swell just did not fit me. A good low cost scope to look at would be the super sniper fixed power. I have the 10x and can pick it up for 299, or 399 with side focus. I have also been looking at the Vortex Viper PST, but in the 6-24x FFP, but I need to save up my pennies. They say you should spend as much on your scope as you did your rife. Buy once cry once .

And after you get your ammo figured out and if you have a smart phone, look at getting the app "shooter" cannot go wrong for 10 bucks.

[splashdown]

What brand and type of dies should I be looking at getting? I've learned so far that I want to neck size (only one bolt rifle).

What features should I be looking for in a set of rifle dies?

Do I only need a two die set, or is there reason to have a 3 die set?

Thanks

[Dirty Rod]

What brand and type of dies should I be looking at getting? I've learned so far that I want to neck size (only one bolt rifle).

What features should I be looking for in a set of rifle dies?

Do I only need a two die set, or is there reason to have a 3 die set?

Thanks

Three die sets typically have a crimp die so it will depend on what you are loading. If you are doing precision loading of bottleneck cartridges then you probably don't need the crimp die unless you just want one. Some like it others don't use it. If you are loading for something like an AR and are using cannelured bullets then you need the crimp die.

Features are one of those things that are personal pref. Seating dies with micro adjustments are preferred by many. Some folks that want the most accuracy like bushing dies and there are neck sizing dies the also bump the shoulder. I shoot with folks that have the $200+ Forster super dies and some that shoot accurately with the basic Lee or Dillon dies. If you are just getting into it you can load good ammo with Lee, RCBS, or pretty much anyone's die set.

I'll stay away from the neck vs F/L sizing debate. I've seen very little difference between the two out of my rifle and after 3 firings I have to bump the shoulder back anyway.

[Graham Smith]

Typically, you only need to neck size IF you are shooting a bolt rifle and IF you are only using the brass in that rifle. IOW, if you start with new brass and only shoot it in your rifle, then it will fire-form to your chamber. The neck sizing only acts to reduce the neck a trifle so that the bullet will go in snugly.

You typically don't need to crimp a .308. If you want, and you are using a 4 station turret press, you can use a Lee taper crimp die as the last station, then you can do it, but it's really not necessary. I wouldn't bother on a single stage.

The most important die is the seating die. You want a die that will seat the bullet dead straight and consistent. Micrometer dies are great if you are trying to adjust the bullet so that it is just off the lands, but that doesn't apply to the factory Rem 700 so save your bucks. I think that the Forster Bench Rest Seating Die is an excellent die for the money (read that as it's what I use and I think that I'm smarter than most people on the planet so it's what everyone should use). There are others but don't skimp on the cost of this die or you will regret it.

If you have not already done so, get a good starter reloading book. The "ABC's of Reloading" is a good first time read. You can get it new from Amazon or used from AbeBooks

[splashdown]

Thanks Graham, I was hoping you would reply. I appreciate your wise words and attention to detail.

I bought the ABC's book years ago and recently went through the rifle portion again. Felling better now, but still was unsure about dies. I'll look at the die you suggested.

Thanks

[Graham Smith]

There are a number of extremely good resources out there, just take care to understand that they are writing from a particular point of view. What's good for a hunter probably won't work for a NRA High Power shooter which won't work for a police or military sniper.

Here is an overview of the .308 cartridge from a competition point of view.

[atomicbrh]

Even before you arrive at number 7

7. Learn to read wind and shoot from prone, kneeling, offhand, etc

look at the NRA Smallbore Silhouette Match Schedule in the back of the online magazine Shooting Sports USA.

If there is a local match in your area contact the Match director. He will invite you to a match and find equipment for you to borrow. Rimfire with a rifle weighing less than 8 and 1/2 lbs. in the standing position from 40 meters out to 100 meters will teach you the position and how to read the wind. Silhouette is a spotter/shooter sport. The Match Director will put you with an experienced spotter usually looking through a big 82 mm Kowa or something similar on a tripod to help you with the wind.

There is anywhere from a 8 MOA to a 11 MOA difference between the 40 meter zero and the 100 meter zero.

The other previous suggestions here are great. I prefer a Scope with large target turrets resettable to zero, a single dot on thin or tapered crosshairs, and 1/4 MOA clicks. The mil-dots are too busy for me on small targets. I cannot call my shots if the scope is too busy.

Try NRA Smallbore Silhouette. That is the easiest place to find your coach/partner/spotter for raw unsupported, very simple equipment long distance marksmanship. The people are very friendly and will help you attain your long term goals with the .308 without all the recoil and noise. The same people will also shoot the Centerfires at longer distances. Plus its fun.

Bobby H.

AAA in both Hunter and Standard Rifle.(The equivalent of Master in the Handgun Sports.)

Edited June 10, 2012 by atomicbrh