Gun Abandonment Practices

[StealthyBlagga]

A detonation during unloading is different from a discharge during unloading. See USPSA rule 10.4.3.1 and IMA SMM3G rule 2.4.3.1. The RO would make the determination if these rules apply.

I believe in a detonation, the bullet does not go down the barrel because the case is not in the chamber and the ejector fires the primer. If the bullet goes down the barrel then the case was in the chamber so the ejector cannot have caused the primer to fire and would be a discharge. I think that is the reasoning for the exception below:

10.4.3.1 Exception – a detonation, which occurs while unloading a handgun,

is not considered a shot or discharge subject to a match disqualification,

however, Rule 5.1.6 may apply.

Doug

Agreed. The most common reason for a detonation is the primer hitting the ejector. The result is typically a handful of brass shrapnel.

[ClutchUSMC]

And I thought I would get more strife over saying. "I'm also of the opinion a grounded 2011 with a working grip safety is just as safe as any glock, xd, m&p regardless of the position of the thumb safety."

But back to the original topic. I think that as long as the gun is sitting in a proper grounding barrel,box, etc. And the muzzle is pointed toward the dirt who cares if the safety is on, or if the gun is hot. I teach lot's of children to shoot and coach 4h rifle and pistol teams. One of the first things I always tell them is that safeties are mechanical devices and that you cannot rely on them. Why do we in the shooting sports, the guys who push our guns to the limits of there designs, think that they are the end all be all to safety. We routinely break parts on our guns, just ask my gunsmith. I would much rather you have the safety off and your muzzle in the berm than it on and I be looking down the muzzle.

I don't know why we get so hung up on pushing a button or flipping a switch. The safety you should be using when you ground your firearm is between your ears.

One more video because I couldn't resist:

Edited May 13, 2012 by ClutchUSMC

[Langenator]

Back to the weapon firing out of battery...I've shot a grand total of 3 3gun matches, never been an RO. But I have run more than a few ranges in my 16 years wearing the green suit, and if a weapon fires without the trigger being pulled, that's de facto evidence that there is something mechanically wrong with the weapon. IOTW, the shooter might not be unsafe, but the weapon sure is.

And if I'm in charge, that weapon isn't coming back on my range until it's been inspected by an armorer and certified as being in proper mechanical order.

As an RO/MD, I might not DQ that shooter, but I sure hope he's got a back up weapon.

[ClutchUSMC]

Back to the weapon firing out of battery...I've shot a grand total of 3 3gun matches, never been an RO. But I have run more than a few ranges in my 16 years wearing the green suit, and if a weapon fires without the trigger being pulled, that's de facto evidence that there is something mechanically wrong with the weapon. IOTW, the shooter might not be unsafe, but the weapon sure is.

And if I'm in charge, that weapon isn't coming back on my range until it's been inspected by an armorer and certified as being in proper mechanical order.

As an RO/MD, I might not DQ that shooter, but I sure hope he's got a back up weapon.

I did go into an empty bay and perform a safety check on the pistol after it happend. That and I broke the ejector off flush with the frame so that it wasn't ever going to happen again. Ran it that way for about 6 months. You should have seen us with a screwdriver and handcuffs, yes handcuffs, beating on my SV. The ejector was already bent from the round so we just pushed it the rest of the way off. Put the gun back together, RO and I go into an empty bay, runs great, ejects live rounds without

going boom, ok you're good to go let's move to the next stage.

Edited May 13, 2012 by ClutchUSMC

[StephensOutdoors]

As 3-gunning has become more popular and more competitive, I seem to see more folks trying to shave time off their run by performing their gun abandonments as quickly as possible. A lot of the time this means throwing or dropping the gun into the abandonment receptacle, as opposed to placing it carefully.

Personally, I'm not cool with competitors allowing their guns to fall out of their physical control, regardless of the distance of the fall, and regardless of whether the gun is "unloaded" or "on safe". I'm sure I am not the only one who has witnessed guns tumbling or bouncing out of abandonment receptacles, or otherwise ending up pointed in an unsafe direction, because of this practice.

My question is whether IMA rules need to do a better job of defining what are acceptable gun abandonment practices. As a starting point, I am thinking about something along the lines of the text in USPSA rule 10.5.3, which provides for safe abandonment with following conditions:

10.5.3.1 The competitor maintains constant physical contact with the [gun] until it is placed firmly and securely [in the defined abandonment location], and

10.5.3.3 The provisions of Rule 10.5.2 do not occur [i.e. the 180 rule is not broken], and

10.5.3.4 The [gun] is in a ready condition as specified in Rule 8.1.1. [i.e. safety on or fully unloaded]

This wording would need some refinement, but what do folks think of the general idea? It could be tough for the RO to make the call sometimes, but then again that is true of a lot of our rules (trigger finger, 180 etc.).

I know that the type of abandonment receptacle is always a hot topic, and I'm sure some folks will say throwing the gun is OK if the receptacle is designed for it - I don't really want to get into that debate here so please try to focus on the desirability of better-defined abandonment practices regardless of whether the abandonment receptacle meets your personal standards of construction.

Unfortunately as 3-gun grows in numbers, so do our encounters with knuckle heads. But it's not just knuckle heads, it's also how far you can push the envelope to get a competitive edge, which leads to knuckle head stuff sometimes. As experienced 3-gunners & Multigun RO's we need to continually educate & remind shooters on what are acceptable & unacceptable safety practices. As a Multigun RO you have to lay out what is considered safe conditions for each stage you work for every squad. This can vary a lot from stage design & layout. You can certainly let shooters get more aggressive dumping a rifle into a 55-gallon Rubermaid trash can than say abandoning a pistol on a small plastic table or barrel top in the rain. I physically show each of my squads my interpretation of safe or unsafe grounding of firearms on each stage I work. I've seen enough variety in my short time in multi-gun to know we can't have enough rules to cover every possible scenario. You'd have to be crazy to try. But the infinite variability is also what makes designing & shooting Multigun much more exciting & attractive than USPSA pistol. So you can't hinder that by adding more rules. A lot of match rules use IMA or similar verbiage that say: "A participant who performs an act of unsafe gun handling will be stopped by an Event Official as soon as possible, and shall be disqualified." I like this rule just the way it is without anything added.

[steviesterno]

Yeah, knuckleheads to say the least. remember that guy I warned you about at York? Well I had to actually grab his AR to stop him from sweeping me and the crowd. I think that's more than a DQ, I should have probably beat his ass...

We see all sorts of dumb things, and have to be doubly careful. Nothing I like more than having a new guy walk to the line, and I say make ready... Turns out he chambered his shotgun in the car... We need to keep this sport as safe as possible. I looked down the barrel of a loaded gun once in my life (DQ, poor sportsmanship, and actually no longer allowed at any club in PA) so I don't really ever feel the need to do it again.

I think some people should dump their guns on safe in a bucket, and abandon them forever

Most of us though are pretty safe and awesome