External Extractors on the 1911

[EricW]

OK, I'm starting this thread as a knowledge thread on external extractors for the 1911 and its variants. If you have knowledge that you would like to contribute, great. This thread ain't the place to debate the virtues of the external versus internal or shout "Three cheers for Aftec!"

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Now that we have the ground rules out of the way, here's what I've learned over the past couple of days:

- The most effective external extractor must have its centerline located below the centerline of the firing pin (just like the internal extractor is). When a case is extracted on a 1911, the case slides down the breechface as the barrel is tipped. Having the extractor below the firing pin allows for positive extraction of the case as the case slips down on the extractor. The Caspian external system seems to follow this rule. Smith and Wesson's old autos (4506 and its variants) follow this rule. The new S&W 1911 DOES NOT follow this rule.

Troubleshooting:

Failures to extract/eject:

The symptom if your external extractor is too high: You will get persistent failures to eject of the last round in the magazine, or if no magazine is in the gun. (A properly fitted *internal* extractor will always extract and eject the case whether or not a magazine is in the gun.) What is happening is that the case rim is actually falling under the extractor hook as the barrel tips - NOT popping over the rim of the case.

The "fix" if your external extractor is too high:

...is to use the follower of the magazine as a case support as the case is drawn out of the chamber. This will prevent the rim from slipping under the extractor. You may be lucky and have a follower that already comes up high enough to do this. If not you can trim/bend the portion of the magazine follower that comes into contact with the slide stop so that the follower comes up higher when it engages the slide stop. The follower will now act like a shelf for the case to ride on on it's way rearward, enabling the extractor to maintain engagement with the case rim. (On my Wilson 8 rounders, I had to trim approximately .050" of material to make this happen.) This basically "solves" the extractor problem.

Unless you are able to obtain a wider extractor, there is basically nothing to be done about the failure to eject without a magazine in the gun since the extractor loses the case rim before it gets to the ejector. A radically extended ejector *may* solve the problem. (I guess I'll have to try it.) Another possible solution may be to install a wider extractor - say off a 4506 - which would give your gun a basically bombproof extraction system.

Field Repair:

- If your external extractor craps out at a match, you are basically screwed, unless you have a hammer, a punch and a holding fixture for the slide in your truck. The extractor pin is a friction fit and is simply driven out from top to bottom. Emphasis should be placed on the word "DRIVEN". You will have to pound the holy hell out of the pin to remove it.

[i'll post pictures of what's going on shortly.]

[LWhitsell]

EricW,

Thank you for this information. I have a new SW1911 and though I have not had a FTE in the first ~150 rounds, I have had some practicing with snap caps. Now that you mention it, I think it was because of trying to eject the snap cap with the mag out.

I am not a gunsmith ( I know my limitations). If I start running into these problems in comp is installing a 4506 something I can ask a gunsmith to do, i.e. direct replacement? Or is this simply a theory on what might work?

Thanks again,

LWhitsell

[EricW]

LWhitsell,

The 4506 extractor system is what should have been put in to begin with. It is not a direct replacement for the existing extractor. It is wider and the hinge pin may be in a different location. I don't know what technical reason would keep it from being used in the 1911. I'll have to pull mine out of my 4506 and compare. Keep in mind, all I had to do was trim the followers with an xacto knife and clean them up with a file to fix my problem. For a competition gun, I don't care so much if my gun ejects with no mag. If I was a combat guy, I'd be pitching a bitch to the owners in Scottsdale.

S&W also had a recall on an early batch of guns with bad extractors (1911). They are sending me a free replacement. Normally, they want you to send the gun in, but I told them there was no way I was going to front the dough to round trip a gun that should have been right to begin with. They want the gun, they can send a call tag for it.

Hopefully the new extractor will work better in mine. I'll try that and a longer ejector and post my results.

E

[rishii]

"DRIVEN".  You will have to pound the holy hell out of the pin to remove it. 

[i'll post pictures of what's going on shortly.]

Eric,

I feel your pain, the trick to getting the pin out is to use a starter punch.

you can buy one from brownell's , or you can do as I did, and take an old, dull center punch, and file off the pointy part, I bent a dozen punches getting those pins out before I figured it out.

place your slide on a bench block, or if you don't have one, a scrap piece of 2x4 with a hole drilled in it. and position your slide with the pin over the hole.

use your starter punch to pound the top of the pin, flush or slightly below the cut out.

then use a standard punch to hammer it the rest of the way out.

btw, if the smith uses the same extractors from their other autos in the 1911, you'll have to fit up the new one. there is a fitting pad behind the hook that you'll have to file down to get the proper tension.