124/147 gr 9mm chrono results

[nmrpilot]

Got some questions with some of my results. I have lost track of the hours spent researching here and other sites for info on loading the 9mm. Not new to loading but the 9mm is new to me. Would like to get to the 1,100 fps mark with 147 gr bullets. I would like to avoid the reason's why its just my desire.

I acknowledge the fact that my following data is way over published data and so far has been safe in MY gun! Could be dangerous in others.

My main question is the results for my 147gr loads.

Hodgdon's shows 147 gr jhp/ 4.3gr WSF/ 1.169 coal/ 935 fps out of a 4" barrel. PSI is 32,300.

Im at 4.7 with WSF and getting average of 942 out of my P228. The 1.169 length works fine in my gun. I figured i would be faster than this. Should I press on with the WSF, not so sure, or go on to AA7, Silhouette, or VV3n38? I was hoping to reach my goal without having to spend the money on the VV. I know some like Power Pistol to hot rod but it has way to much blast flash for me. I have tried it with 124's.

My 124gr results:

Rem JHP/ 6.6gr WSF/ 1.169 COAL/ 1198fps average.

7.9 gr HS-6/ 1.169COAL/ 1215fps average.

All primers are somewhat flat but no flow. No other signs of really high pressure. The WSF seems to have a better "feel" than the HS-6, a little softer. All loads were with once fired mixed.

[gng4life]

Do you have any specs and chrono results for PP and MG 124 or any 124's?

[nmrpilot]

No I don't. I could probably work on some though. We do have some PP to use. Any specific target your trying to reach?

[gng4life]

To make 170 PF with the MG CMJ 124 and PP out of a 5" Trubor Open gun with two popple holes. I'm working up some now and going to the range in the morning to test them out. I'll post my results but if you work up some also, I'd be interested in comparing results. Thanks!

[G-ManBart]

Your load(s) isn't safe in your gun, it just hasn't blown up yet...but it might if you push WSF as much as you'd need to. Your HS-6 load comes back at 47,840psi in Quickload.

The other options you mention are all north of 40K psi as well. The only one I could find lower than that was N105 at 35-36K psi. I won't post the charges necessary for the powders you mention because it would be irresponsible.

[al503]

There may be some new load data with AA7 in one of the new reloading manuals (don't have Guy's Front Site article in front of me.) If you can get that info AA is less expensive than 3n38. The max for 3n38 is 6.9 at 1.142" which will give you just over 1100 fps.

I'd stick with a book load even if it costs more. The delta in powder cost will be nothing compared to what it will cost to replace a bbl/top end, etc. JMO, though.

[stringcheese]

What is Quickload?

[nmrpilot]

Thank you so much for the detailed info. My buddy and I were considering getting the Quickload program. That's wonderful info! G-manbart, mayby you could shed some light on a load that is in a Lyman book, number 48:

9x21 Load

147 gr. TMJ

1.169" OAL

Max: AA#7, 9.2gr, 1228 fps, 33k CUP

There was a ragging debat on another site about using this 9x21 load data in 9mm since it is loaded to a 9mm COAL. As you can see they say it runs at 33K cup. You would think it would be higher than that even with AA#7. The Hornady manual doesn't show pressure's but does mention that when loaded to same lengths, 9MM and 9x21 have the same case capacity. The only reason i am asking what your program would say is because it is already in a published book. I totally understand if you do not want to do that though. Have you found Quickload to be accurate on all or most counts? Thanks again and i will try to find that new AA data!

[G-ManBart]

There may be some new load data with AA7 in one of the new reloading manuals (don't have Guy's Front Site article in front of me.) If you can get that info AA is less expensive than 3n38. The max for 3n38 is 6.9 at 1.142" which will give you just over 1100 fps.

I'd stick with a book load even if it costs more. The delta in powder cost will be nothing compared to what it will cost to replace a bbl/top end, etc. JMO, though.

Just in case anybody thinks they'd like to try that load, and just FWIW, Quickload shows that load (I used a Hornady XTP) at 48,618psi and 1,143fps.

[G-ManBart]

What is Quickload?

Ballistics software. I wouldn't say that it's perfect, but normally in the right ballpark.

http://www.neconos.com/details3.htm

[G-ManBart]

Thank you so much for the detailed info. My buddy and I were considering getting the Quickload program. That's wonderful info! G-manbart, mayby you could shed some light on a load that is in a Lyman book, number 48:

9x21 Load

147 gr. TMJ

1.169" OAL

Max: AA#7, 9.2gr, 1228 fps, 33k CUP

There was a ragging debat on another site about using this 9x21 load data in 9mm since it is loaded to a 9mm COAL. As you can see they say it runs at 33K cup. You would think it would be higher than that even with AA#7. The Hornady manual doesn't show pressure's but does mention that when loaded to same lengths, 9MM and 9x21 have the same case capacity. The only reason i am asking what your program would say is because it is already in a published book. I totally understand if you do not want to do that though. Have you found Quickload to be accurate on all or most counts? Thanks again and i will try to find that new AA data!

I'm not sure exactly which TMJ they were using. When I run the number of that load, but use a Lyman cast lead 141gr bullet, it's still at 42K psi (1253fps). Switch that to a Hornady 147gr JHP, and it jumps to a mere 82K PSI at 1400fps. I'm guessing parts will go flying somewhere in between.

So far, I've found QL to be reasonably close as far as velocity, but I have no way of measuring pressure (really do want a pressure gun for Christmas!). R,

[nmrpilot]

Wow! How can there be such a huge difference?

[al503]

There may be some new load data with AA7 in one of the new reloading manuals (don't have Guy's Front Site article in front of me.) If you can get that info AA is less expensive than 3n38. The max for 3n38 is 6.9 at 1.142" which will give you just over 1100 fps.

I'd stick with a book load even if it costs more. The delta in powder cost will be nothing compared to what it will cost to replace a bbl/top end, etc. JMO, though.

Just in case anybody thinks they'd like to try that load, and just FWIW, Quickload shows that load (I used a Hornady XTP) at 48,618psi and 1,143fps.

6.9 is straight from vv's reloading data. I dunno if they guesstimated or if it's based on their actual testing but given it's slow (relative) burn rate, it seems reasonable at the very least.

I don't have any other max loads for 3n38 from other resources but it would be interesting to see if they corroborate vv's info or not.

[gng4life]

What is Quickload?

Ballistics software. I wouldn't say that it's perfect, but normally in the right ballpark.

http://www.neconos.com/details3.htm

- Hey G-Man, is it worth the $150? I'm always trying new powders and bullets and it seems like a good tool to have around but would you say it's worth it? Thanks

- NMRPilot, that's about the same load I used to use in my 38 Super a long time ago. I am pretty sure I was in the 8.8 to 9.0 range and it made major. Not saying you can use that in a 9mm but it sounds like a reasonable max load, always work up slow...

[nmrpilot]

I just spoke with Lyman and they are sure there 147 gr TMJ load at 1.169 OAL is not running at 80,000+ psi. Im not saying it couldnt be running over psi though. I think i will work up an HS-6 load using their data and then maybe try some AA7. I will definetly start low and work up slowly. I have also noticed that nobody gets close to VV's velocity with 147gr and 3N38 as listed. Thanks for all the input.

FYI, the TMJ they used was from Speer. Picked up the book today.

Edited May 6, 2011 by nmrpilot

[G-ManBart]

- Hey G-Man, is it worth the $150? I'm always trying new powders and bullets and it seems like a good tool to have around but would you say it's worth it? Thanks

I think so, but I don't put total faith in it. I just ran my .40 load that I'm taking to the SS Nationals. It's a Hornady 180gr HAP, with 5.1gr of N210 in a Win case with a Win SP primer. My guns averaged 985fps, and QL shows it at 1037fps. My reloads used once-fired cases, and that accounts for at least 15-20fps in most of my tests (comparing once-fired to new). With the variations in individual barrels, I'm pretty happy with a simulation that gets that close. For my .38SC loads it was exactly on the money...like perfect, with previous lots, but my newest lot is a touch slower, and takes .3gr more to get to the same level. I don't expect any program can keep track of lot variations like that. R,

[8ring]

Got some questions with some of my results. I have lost track of the hours spent researching here and other sites for info on loading the 9mm. Not new to loading but the 9mm is new to me. Would like to get to the 1,100 fps mark with 147 gr bullets. I would like to avoid the reason's why its just my desire.

I acknowledge the fact that my following data is way over published data and so far has been safe in MY gun! Could be dangerous in others.

My main question is the results for my 147gr loads.

Hodgdon's shows 147 gr jhp/ 4.3gr WSF/ 1.169 coal/ 935 fps out of a 4" barrel. PSI is 32,300.

Im at 4.7 with WSF and getting average of 942 out of my P228. The 1.169 length works fine in my gun. I figured i would be faster than this. Should I press on with the WSF, not so sure, or go on to AA7, Silhouette, or VV3n38? I was hoping to reach my goal without having to spend the money on the VV. I know some like Power Pistol to hot rod but it has way to much blast flash for me. I have tried it with 124's.

My 124gr results:

Rem JHP/ 6.6gr WSF/ 1.169 COAL/ 1198fps average.

7.9 gr HS-6/ 1.169COAL/ 1215fps average.

All primers are somewhat flat but no flow. No other signs of really high pressure. The WSF seems to have a better "feel" than the HS-6, a little softer. All loads were with once fired mixed.

You are far into the Red Zone using 6.6gr WSF with a 124gr bullet. Hodgdon's Annual Manual states that the maximum charge for a 124gr 9mm bullet is 5.3 gr at 32,700 psi. I suspect that your 6.6gr charge is well over 40,000 psi. As a comparison, Hodgdon lists 6.6gr WSF as the maximum load on a 38 Super +P.

By the same token, you are well over the maximum load with HS-6. Hodgdon's maximum load for HS-6 with a 124gr bullet is 6.8gr at 30,700 cup.

Be careful.

Chris

[nmrpilot]

I know im well into the red zone. I have worked these up after looking at many many loads floating around here and other places.

Check this load out! Im not trying it.

124gr Speer FMJ 8.4gr WW540* 1.158” 1432 177.5 Major EAA Gold Team

WW540 is same as HS-6.

[nmrpilot]

New Data:

124gr Rem JHP

AA7

1.158 col

P228

Averages

7.8 1067

8.0 1078

8.2 1106

8.4 1126

8.6 1140

8.8 1163

8.8 out of an sti with 5" barrel 1203 and 1233

147gr WIN JHP

AA7

1.158 col

P228

Averages

7.0 968

7.2 977

7.6 1034

7.8 1038

Gun functions fine. Primers still look fine no other signs. I like AA7. Loads were not very dirty for me. I do run all loads through Lee FCD with a light crimp. No setback problems.

[gng4life]

But none of those make major, not even close. Is that what you were looking for?

I used AA#5 and #7 for years and they are decent powders but there are much better powders to use.

[nmrpilot]

Havn't hit my goal yet. Not trying so much to hit major with these but duplicate certain factory stuff. I posted here because there are so many knowledgable people. After all the reading i have done it seemed HS-6 and AA7 were the best to start with.

[gng4life]

Yeah, you are going in the right direction, very good approach. I would say HS-6, WAC, PP, Silhouette, 3n37, 3n38, and then AA #7 are the most common 9mm Major powders. Vihtavouri N320, TG, W231, WSF/WST, then AA#5 would be the most common minor powders. That's just a guess from me searching for months looking for major and minor loads.

One comment I want to make about your original post. You said something about wanting to use 147 and get it moving about 1100 fps. That's very close to major (I know you are looking for factory type loads but nice to know PF too) and honestly, I like the 147's. I went out yesterday and shot 10 different sets of loads, all with PP. The 147s made 173 PF and felt awesome compared to the 124s with PP and they were just under major. I'll post my info later when I get home. I did chrono all the rounds and will post that too. However, I would pick up one mag of 124s (close to major - 164 PF) and then shot another mag of 147s (173 PF) and I really like the 147 much better. Less felt recoil in the hand and I seem to shoot it much more comfortably. I'm still new to Open so I need to try more powders and combos but so far, I'm not impressed with MG 124 CMJ and PP in my 5" STI Trubor (with two holes).

[nmrpilot]

Yeah, you are going in the right direction, very good approach. I would say HS-6, WAC, PP, Silhouette, 3n37, 3n38, and then AA #7 are the most common 9mm Major powders. Vihtavouri N320, TG, W231, WSF/WST, then AA#5 would be the most common minor powders. That's just a guess from me searching for months looking for major and minor loads.

One comment I want to make about your original post. You said something about wanting to use 147 and get it moving about 1100 fps. That's very close to major (I know you are looking for factory type loads but nice to know PF too) and honestly, I like the 147's. I went out yesterday and shot 10 different sets of loads, all with PP. The 147s made 173 PF and felt awesome compared to the 124s with PP and they were just under major. I'll post my info later when I get home. I did chrono all the rounds and will post that too. However, I would pick up one mag of 124s (close to major - 164 PF) and then shot another mag of 147s (173 PF) and I really like the 147 much better. Less felt recoil in the hand and I seem to shoot it much more comfortably. I'm still new to Open so I need to try more powders and combos but so far, I'm not impressed with MG 124 CMJ and PP in my 5" STI Trubor (with two holes).

I to really like the 147's. Looking forward to your data! I also have an old speer 10 manual on the way to reference also. I hear that book has some of the hottest load data in print. Will be interesting to see and compare. I dont like PP. I can see the flash in the daytime. Was thinking of trying Silhouette though.

[nmrpilot]

Got my new,old, speer 10 book. One really interesting load stood out. We all know the properties of Blue Dot and AA7. AA7 is listed as a slightly slower powder than Blue Dot and is one of the best powders for heavy loads for 9mm. The book states that the maximum loads do not exceed 35,700 cup which equal to our present day +p max. They list the following load:

125 gr JSP

8.8 max load of Blue Dot.

1.100 OAL

1233 fps out of a S&W 39/ 4" barrel.

Im at 8.8 of AA7 running 1163 average out of my Sig P228. My OAL is 1.158.

My Lyman 49th list the following load:

125gr JHP

7.1 max Blue Dot

1.075 OAL

1163 fps from 4" universal receiver

32,400 cup

Interesting stuff, just thought i would share. Any luck on that load data gng?

[rfwobbly]

Hodgdon's shows 147 gr jhp/ 4.3gr WSF/ 1.169 coal/ 935 fps out of a 4" barrel. PSI is 32,300.

I'm at 4.7 with WSF and getting average of 942 out of my P228.

• You cannot duplicate the load in the book unless you have everything the same as the test lab. Therefore, there is ALWAYS some variation from the published load. Sometimes the results are higher; sometimes lower.

• The whole goal of having a chrono is to match the velocity. We assume that when you match the velocity you have also matched the chamber pressure. We do that because a chrono is cheaper than buying a pistol that look like this....

• Your velocity of 942 matches Hodgdon's velocity of 935. Therefore, we can conclude that you have gone as far as you can safely go with WSF.

• You need to consult a powder burn rate chart and find slower powders which will give you the velocity you desire at a lower (safer) chamber pressure. You can go about this "backasswards" by finding any powder listed in your load manual that shows a max load for 147gr above 1100 fps. The only powders I see like that are VV 3N38 and VV N105. Blue Dot comes close. AA No.9 is a likely suspect. There must be others.

With all due respect sir, if you didn't know these 4 basic reloading tidbits, then I will suggest for your own personal safety that you are "in" way over your head. Finding 1100 fps is not nearly as important as being able to hug your grandchildren.