okay i give up (recoil question)

[RWF]

well maybe it is true i am no smarter than a rock. so please help me understand and let me know what i am missing. this has to with the recoil of the AR in 223. there are 2 schools of thought on reducing recoil. mine is the 3 gunner way, light wieght bolt carrier and buffer. this works great for me.

then there is group who says that a heavy bolt carrier and extra heavy buffer reduces the recoil. this seems to come from long range X ring shooters.

i built a upper to try this a extra heavy NM bolt carrier and heavy buffer. this rifle kicks much harder than my game gun. and quicky got rid of the heavy buffer.

both rifles where made very close to same way.

so what is the answer.

also people claim if put suppresser on a gun it will reduce recoil, this BS mine kicks harder suppressed

so what am i missing?

[Ken Kwiat]

I'm sure others will chime in too.

I think you're being too broad when saying "recoil reduction". In a DI gas gun, there's a few things going on affecting a shooter's perception of recoil.

The muzzle flip, the rearward recoil impulse, and the forward bolt slam.

I can't speak from the BR perspective of it. But, from a 3 gun and LR tactical perspective here's my take.

A good compensator (analyzed to death elsewhere on this forum) works on the muzzle flip portion, i.e., allowing staying on target, quicker follow up shots. My experience shooting suppressed is that they are damn good compensators. That's a primary reason so many of us shoot suppressed for LR Tac -- staying on target at distance, calling misses/hits better. I remember Don Bednorz telling me a story of having a "double" during practice with the JP tank comp at distance. Better than snake eyes.

Rearward recoil impulse & forward bolt slam: this is where the lightened carrier, buffer, etc. come into play. I personally like JP's combination in this respect (combined with an adjustable gas block for fine tuning). I've even tried the extreme of going with a fully Ti carrier but couldn't get it to run reliably in my AR. Others on this forum have and have some incredibly soft shooting ARs. The "heavy buffer, spring, & carrier" guys are probably absorbing more of the rearward impulse. But, I'm betting they're also feeling more bolt slam as all that mass is traveling forward to strip/chamber the next round.

I tend to be more sensitive to the bolt slam than the rearward impulse (especially for .223!) as the slam is often what pushes me off target for the follow up shot. When I get a perceived impulse that feels similar to my .22 upper shooting suppressed, that's when I call it good enough. OK, I'm exaggerating a bit.

That's where I think the 3 gunners are optimizing for what matters in our sport, fast, aimed follow up shots.

[Mike P]

You didn't say what length gas system you used for the builds. I believe an adjustable gas block and a good brake will get you a flat shooting carbine if you use at least a mid lenth gas system. A rifle length is better (for me). I have no experience with lightened carriers or buffers, but those who run them seem to think it helps.

I do run H buffers in my piston guns though, but not for recoil reduction.

[ken hebert]

does the heavy carrier have anything to do with bolt unlock time? and would this come into play with longer range accuracy?

[RWF]

both are 16" mid length. the game gun has all the JP stuff lighten bolt adjustable gas block etc. very low recoil

the other has the JP adjustable gas block but has the extra heavy N.M. bolt. it recoils much harder and even harder with the suppressor mounted. even if i close down move on the gas block.

both have muzzle brakes but the one with the heavy bolt, the muzzle brake is also a used to install a suppresser.

Yes the heavier bolt does increase lock time and reduces the stress on the brass. does help with long range accuracy. i do understand that part of it that, is why the high power shooters use it.

but it is part of the claimed lighten recoil that i do not understand. on the high power set up

and yes i have shot a few where the slam of the bolt was more of issue than the recoil. and understand that part of it.

like i said i am missing something.

ken says suppressers make damn good comps, and have heard that alot but mine has even move recoil over the just comp

thanks

[Kyle O]

I'm thinking the suppressor is adding more gas, therefore sending the bcg back harder. Same reason cyclic rate is increased while full auto suppressed.

[AlamoShooter]

does the heavy carrier have anything to do with bolt unlock time? and would this come into play with longer range accuracy?

Yes =Thats it In glen Zediker's book & in David Tubbs book both are interested in Long range x ring count

Tubb

s sells the weights to add to the carrier he has some cool stuff at his web site www.SuperiorShootingSystems.comAlso you would have to try the heavy bullets 77s loaded hot-ish to feel ware a heavy bolt -{May feel} like less recoil.

heavy bullet 24" barrel slow packed powder-

I have a few of my old -long load- varmint loads = I am not going to shoot them in my Fire Bird upper with the light carrier and light buffer. = its going to slam back hard.

And Like Ken says the brass the bolt unlocking early will not be as good.

Much of the book info is written by the position shooters that shot Camp Perry.

That was my original interest but 911 closed many of the Base matches.

I forgot most of what I almost knew about it. and now 3 gun is Light Carrier and light buffer ! a good JP spring and Be Happy.

Edited January 22, 2011 by AlamoShooter