Guitarmageddon
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Posts posted by Guitarmageddon
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Ok everyone, just a quick update....
Damn I need to hoard some federal primers because that made all the difference. WOW
So I got one FTF out off 100 rnds fired today of federal #100s, because I got a little too greedy and went sub 6.5 lbs. I settled on a trigger weight of 7-7.5lbs and a hammer fall of 30-35oz depending on how/where I measure it. I think I may crank it up jusssst a tad for extra assurance, and also will likely still do the extended firing pin.
I am reading writeups of other people that achieved 7.5lbs on all factory ammo and I just dont see how. However, with federal on this gun, that was the ticket. I really liked the 4.4gr off N32C under 147gr blue bullets RN today. Very accurate load, chrono around 780fps, super pleasant to shoot.
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Ok everyone. Loaded up my first batch of federal primers under some n32c and 147gr blue bullets RN. heading to the range to get some Chrono data of a new load recipe and God willing report back good reliability at sub 8lbs. However, if it doesn't, next step I plan is the firing pin. Will report my findings.
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13 minutes ago, Dr. Phil said:
Which to be fair is the exact same as all the other revolvers out there.
Check out the past revo posts. All the revos have to have something done to make them competition worthy.
Or are any of you shooting a stock gun and winning?
Shot my first steel challenge ever at a major match with the r8. It was after that match I realized a stock gun wouldn't cut it haha.
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3 minutes ago, MWP said:
Keep the factory firing pin until you’re on federal primers only. The factory pin is the ONLY pin that will stand up to dryfire and all types of primers, hard and soft.
Interesting. So even just in terms of strength/longevity, the aftermarket options like power custom are more brittle?
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To answer the few that asked, at about 9lbs trigger and 50-55oz hammer, it would not set off FACTORY Winchester white box. But seemed to be on factory geco and federal "range and training. For my reloads, I did have issue on tula primers and CCI primers..more so with CCI. I have yet to reload with federal, I have both types of their SPP currently. I may whip some up this weekend paying special mind to a good seat. This gun has had virtually zero light strikes in the years I've owned it, with one or two on tula primers when I first learned to reload but that was it. So maybe the factory hammer was a little more forgiving to primers a minute bit higher than a "deep seat".
I believe the factory trigger was around 10.5-11lbs but I was still learning the trigger scale at the time, until I got the method Down.
Any recommendations for an extended firing pin? I will likely tear the gun apart this weekend and see where the stock measures at, then report back.
I appreciate everyone's input. This has been a job Ive wanted to take on for years but have been too apprehensive about. No turning back now!
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29 minutes ago, pskys2 said:
You will need over 60 oz if you're shooting factory ammo other than Federal. Tula, CCI and geco are Hard. WW is usually a little less than those, but not much.
So 1st thing is you must reload Fed primers if you're going to lighten up your action much. If you're going to shoot "those others" you just have to accept a heavy pull.
Yea this was kind of what I was thinking. I think I may leave the trigger as is at around 50oz at the hammer and 8.5-9lbs at pull, and then slowly dial back with some federal reloads.
On a related note, I see some referencing very specific primer seating depths for federal. This is not something I have ever considered or fussed over with CCI/tula up to this point (factory hammers of course)
How would I best accommodate for this on my Dillon 550? Just get the feel for a good squish and make sure it's seated .00x inches past the head?
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See I'm not too caught up on polishing everything at the moment because this is a well worn gun that is already a performance center. Gun..thousands of rounds through it by now. I've owned since 2013 and it's been my main shooter for white a long time. It's pretty damn smooth. Could I polish stuff? Yes probably.
As far as the ammo I tested it was factory Winchester factory geco and factory federal, plus CCI spp reloads and tula spp reloads. No federal reloads yet.
So maybe I go one step up on the rebound spring? I get that yes, there are many interweaving aspects of a "trigger job" but what I seek here is taking that already smooth hitch-free factory trigger and just going a few pounds lighter. But a hammer fall over 50oz and trigger weight at almost 9lbs didn't get me there with factory stuff which I found odd.
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Ok so forgive me if I'm seeming dense, just trying to get my head wrapped around the concepts.
Just got back from some range testing. I got as far as I could but was interrupted by a storm. So I tested factory geco, Winchester white box, federal, plus reloads with tula primers and cci primers. I had FTF on the tula and the Winchester several times. I had it weighing the hammer fall at over 50 oz, something like 52 consistently. Then the trigger weight itself was around 9 lbs. This seems odd to me that I would still get ftf.
Im confused when you say "don't worry about weighing the pull, just crank it til it goes off 100%"
Then how do I lighten the trigger? Objectively, if I go heavier from here, it feels no lighter than the stock operation. where I'm getting confused, is that I'm unclear if the return spring affects my trigger squeeze weight (i.e. what we would call the weight of the trigger) or is it ONLY the speed/strength of the snap back after the trigger is fully depressed. I have the 13lb in there right now, the lightest of the kit so Id have to buy more options if thats the case.
To be honest, if I have to go much heavier from here Ill just either a)load up federal and make this a federal only gun or b) just throw the stock spring back in and call it a day.
Or should I be consulting other brands besides wolf?
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14 minutes ago, Toolguy said:
You don't need to worry about different hammers unless you're trying to get under about 6.5 lb. DA trigger pull.
Using a setscrew with Loctite in the threads, adjust the mainspring tension to get as light as it will reliable fire whatever ammo you have. You can always readjust for different ammo later if needed. Once you get that done, put in the lightest rebound spring that resets the trigger in a positive manner. That is the lightest trigger pull you will get with that gun and ammo. Every gun is an individual entity. No 2 will be exactly the same, even if they were next to each other on the production line. They will be close enough that any difference won't matter.
Thanks! I think I'm overcomplicating this a bit ...
A couple more questions.
I have both regular Federal primers as well as gold medal match small pistol primers. I was trying to tune the spring to give me good reliability with my various factory ammo and other brands of primers before I started down the "super light Federal" route. When they make the reference about Federal primers being soft do they mean all of them in general or specifically the gold medal match?
And second whether I am trying to get below 7 lb or not when is it imperative that I have the extended firing pin? Is it in general just good insurance to have by installing one no matter what?
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3 minutes ago, Toolguy said:
You can add or subtract bend in the spring itself, and/or adjust it with the strain screw. Make any bends with a big radius. The nice thing about the set screws is they don't have a head, so you are free to go in or out as far as needed to get where you want to be.
There are some people on other forums that have a heart attack if you propose to alter your gun in any way from how it was originally shipped. Ignore them. You will never have a good action by leaving everything stock. Most of them are just parrots that repeat what they have heard from somewhere else. For example - You have to have the strain screw all the way in so the head is tight. True, if you don't have LocTite, false if you have some. Or - Only use one drop of Loctite. One drop is usually not enough. Clean the threads well with solvent, let dry, then coat threads with how ever much it takes. Assemble parts, wipe off excess. Use a Q-Tip to get in small spaces. There is nothing else around the strain screw that it can get into and cause a problem.
So how about this concept.... if I have a great trigger weight/feel, lets say 7.5 lbs. But the hammer fall weight is shy, lets say its something like 36oz and I want to be closer to 40-45 as you say, if not more. Would I then maybe take some prebend OUT of the main spring but crank down on the strain screw to add tension back in? or would I add pre bend IN to the spring, but relax the strain screw. Im sensing this is a fine balancing act....
And as a final/last option, I would begin to play with actual different hammers/ weights then right?
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59 minutes ago, pskys2 said:
So, for now:
Stick with you stock hammer
Check the FP total length, if it's .500' or longer you're good, if under .490" try an extended firing pin from C&S, TK or Apex.
Adjust your Mainspring to a 42oz hammer fall by bending the mainspring, making sure to leave at least 1/2 turn available for the strain screw to seat fully.
When you talk about bending the mainspring, are you talking about me taking some of the bend out, or adding "pre-bend" in, or are you simply referring to cranking the strain screw til that hammer fall weight.
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42 minutes ago, pskys2 said:
Make sure you back off the strain screw "Before" removing the side plate though. Not doing so will ultimately end in a broken Trigger Stud and a trip to S&W.
Thank you for the advice. I did also not know this and twice today took it off before relaxing the spring. Good information. Once I get the guts worked up to take the firing pin out I will confirm that length.
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3 minutes ago, pskys2 said:
I've been doing what Toolguy suggested, set my hammer heavy say 52+oz at the least when bottomed out. Then back off the strain screw 1/4 turn seemed to drop the hammer fall 4 oz. So if using the stock hammer back out the strain screw 3/4 turn, this should give you 40 oz. then go shoot. If you get a failure to fire, crank it up 1/4 turn. Then after several hundred rounds with no failures, fine tune it a bit with maybe a 1/8 turn back.
Once you are to the point that you're as light on the hammer as possible with no FTF's then you can adjust the rebound spring to give you the "feel" you like. Some want a very positive return, some want it to be as light as possible without any hitches.
I tend to like a return heavy enough to reliably return the trigger even with a 48 oz action. Just in case I have weird issues at a match, remember Murphy is always lurking at matches!
So if I still couldnt get the hammer fall heavier with an acceptable trigger feel, and reliablity of ignition, do I have to go to a heavier hammer? Im trying to keep it stock at the moment. Hopefully i phrased that question correctly, still learning some of the revolver trigger work quirks
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Just now, pskys2 said:
4 lbs of hammer fall is 64 oz. I will use close to that for an EDC Revolver (325 TR) and set everything a bit heavier for a 7 1/2 lb action.
With a stock hammer you should be ok above 48 oz, which is 3 lbs.
Ok scratch that I was getting the hang of that measurment method, I got roughly 3lbs, give or take some.
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2 minutes ago, pskys2 said:
For instance my 627's are both set up with a C&S extended FP (.509" total length), 36 oz hammer, an 11 lb rebound cut to .960" length which gives me a 4.75 action. If used with Fed Primers seated .008" to .011" I've had no failures. I've even used this with WSP & Fiocchi Primers with only an occasional fail
4 minutes ago, pskys2 said:No. ignore the trigger pull at this point. Put the hook of the trigger gauge on the hammer between the forward face of the hammer and the frame. Pull the trigger Double Action method and when it releases the hammer measure the force it takes to keep the hammer from falling. Keep your finger holding the trigger back all the way though so there's nothing interfering with the hammer.
Some measure the weight to keep the hammer near the center of its arc, others will measure it at full arch (just after it is released by the trigger and can go forward). I tend to do the center of the travel as it's easier to get a consistent reading to me.
For instance my 627's are both set up with a C&S extended FP (.509" total length), 36 oz hammer, an 11 lb rebound cut to .960" length which gives me a 4.75 action. If used with Fed Primers seated .008" to .011" I've had no failures. I've even used this with WSP & Fiocchi Primers with only an occasional failure (1 in 100 rounds) good for practice but not for a match.
If you run a search you can find quite a bit of good information that Toolguy has posted and some more detailed info I've posted.
If ive taken your hammer measurment right Im pretty close to 4lbs. still pretty heavy right?
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7 minutes ago, pskys2 said:
Not all new/After Market Mainsprings are actually set for any particular weight. I had a Bang that was set so light that it "knuckled" and made the gun inoperable. Others were set heavy. You may well need to adjust it yourself. Not hard Toolguy, think it was him, recommended that you trace the existing arch on paper for reference. Then the more the bend the lighter the pull.
Then use a trigger gauge to measure the hammer fall. For wsp probably need 50+oz fall, for Feds you can go as low as 32 oz. Then match a lighter rebound spring to that mainspring until you feel right.
Oh and certain things need polished. There are vids and info on that.
When you say 32 or 50oz for fall, are you referring to the SA pull? Ive got it roughly 7-7.5lbs for todays range testing session as a starting point.
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I just threw in the wolf 13lb spring and it definitely changed the dynamic of how the tension is applied. I currently have the stock strain screw in there, but will likely purple / blue loctite it soon, once I take micrometer measurements of things and where reliable ignition is obtained. Once I put the 13lb rebound in, it basically required me to tighten the factory strain screw basically all the way in, to get roughly 7lb of pull. Ive got some set screws coming that I intend to file down and blue loctite once I find the right length.
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Ok after some more fine tuning I have the trigger consistently at 7.9lbs to 8.1lbs. I guess the problem is that its hard for me to percieve a difference?
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Hello all,
Firs time Ive gotten the backplate off my beloved R8. Wanted to start with just the reduced power main spring to see if things were any different. I replaced it, literally zero percieved difference. My fussy wheeler trigger gauge reports some reduction, but its all over the place on this gun.
Will I feel a reduced effort to pull one I start playing with the rebound springs, or that is ONLY on the trigger return those come into play?
I wonder if wolf sent me the wrong spring in the package, its literally identical in feel at any adjustment of the strain screw. This is odd and not what I expected. I suspect the stock pull was around 10-11 lbs.
EDIT- after fine tuning my methods with the trigger gauge, It seems it is currently sitting at 9.6 lbs after the new spring. not what I was expecting. not sure how much I can really get from dialing out the strain screw.
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1 hour ago, EarlKeese said:
I've had similar issues loading coated lead projectiles for my CZ's. Slugged all of my barrels and sure enough, all but one of my CZ's are .356. I load .357 diameter 135's and no longer have lead fouling or accuracy issues.
What .357 do you choose? i have some blue bullets .358 but im wondering if those will be a hell of a time plunking. 125gr i use in my 38/357
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So I did run the HAPs through the Chrono today. Again, .356 projo in my .356 barrel. I first did 3.5, 3.6, 3.7. grains I was unable to hit 1000 fps. I am going to do 3.8gr tomorrow to see what the results are. This is with n320 at 1.064 OAL. I didn't bother messing with hp38 like I planned. After 3.8 grains I start to get pretty darn close to 100% fill and I like to leave myself some wiggle room in there.
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Yea after running lots of loads through GRT and comparing simulated numbers vs actual, this one doesn't seem to come close to reality. In the end, this just may be a bullet for n320. Even the VV reloading today doesn't show such a stark disparity in HAP vs regular more conventional fmj loadings at a shorter OAL.
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Hello all,
In the pursuit of optimizing bullet choice for my cz p07 barrel, which slugged out at .356, I decided to try a couple .356 FMJ choices. I got some zero 125gr fmj and also the hornady action pistol .356 125gr. The hodgon site shows an extremely conservative velocity and charge weight for the HAPs. Just so happens that my ideal OAL for plunking is what they have chosen for their OAL.
But when I run the numbers inside GRT, I just dont see why they have chosen to be so conservative. I have attached what GRT shows for the listed hodgdon ladder. Yes a power factor of 118 for their "action pistol" bullet....odd.
Im thinking I can comfortably take this to 3.6 and just about 1000fps. Has anyone else played with this powder/bullet? Ive seen forum posts here and there and seems hornady/hodgdon give the run around about it and dont comment as to why.
But when I sit down to plan out my n320 testing, its not much different from any of their other FMJ listings to be honest. At least not as stark of a contrast as hodgdon shows.
The peak charge of 3.3 on the hodgdon ladder is only a 57% case fill at that. something doesnt add up. Id love to hear your thoughts, thanks all.
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Definitely agree. And when it came to basically every coated offering I was having to seat at around 1.070-1.090. I could get away with 1.095 for 147 gr coated stuff but not much longer. There were some longer nosed FMJ profiles that can seat to quite a bit longer OAL however. Hoping some of the .356 options I've ordered this week can accommodate. It's a total pain to have to go to such a great seating depth.
Just put a wolf reduced power mainspring in my r8.....thats it? Underwhelmed
in Revolver Forum
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Yea i think so too. However, I do want to see if the extended pin helps things any more? Cant hurt right?
Also want to make sure that the set screw I changed out for the original strain screw stays put, with the help of the loctite I put on.
So from this point on, I have a few questions....
1) should there be any difference in reliability of primer strike between use of moon clips vs no clips? Assuming of course the moon clips are straight and not mangled
2) If I make it a few hundred rounds and only then get a FTF on a given spring tension, could you assume maybe I slipped up and didnt seat a primer fully, or would that be cause for your to check trigger weight, ensure things are still the same, and maybe tighten up a tad?