Scott R
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Posts posted by Scott R
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Please read 9.6.8 ...as and when required..., so if a shooter challenges the scoring call it is usally done by asking for an overlay. Sometimes not very politely.
I read 9.6.8 to apply to determining the scoring zone, not if a hole in the target was made by one or two bullet penetrations.
"9.6.8 Scoring overlays approved by the Range Master must be used exclusively,
as and when required, to verify and/or determine the applicable
scoring zone of hits on paper targets."
If you are saying that you must use an overlay in the OP's scenario can you describe how you would use it?
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I worked a stage recently where several of the targets could be engaged from an angle. One shooter only had 1 hit on the target. When I called it alpha-mike, he asked for an overlay. What is the best practice for using on overlay when the bullet hole is oblong due to the angle of bullet impact?
A shooter can challenge the call (9.6 gives the details) but the use of an overlay cannot be mandated by the shooter. An overlay is probably not going to be usefull in this case. I would look for evidence of more than one bullet penetrating the target and if that evidence does not exist the call of alpha-mike stands, subject to any appeals listed in 9.6.
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But some of the conversation centered around,"How can I really practice getting to the gun, picking it up, loading it, etc at combat speed if you will" without running from the start position.
You would practice the "getting to the gun" during the walk through, "picking it up, loading it, etc" not at the match but instead during your practice sessions.
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Bump to Open or no score. Appendix D5 and 6.2.5.1.
Is this a trick question?
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So where do you you reload your mags or do you carry 300 rounds on your belt.
Under USPSA rules you reload your mags anywhere exept the "Safe Area".
Or maybe I don't fully understand, what prompted this question?
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The best way to do a NS on a star is to have it part of the star. 4 shoot plates and 1 NS plate. That way you do not have to worry about shoot through's, hard cover, or soft cover.
Not true. If you put a NS paper in front of a NS steel, and a shooter shoots the NS paper and knocks down the NS steel, it's Range Equipment Failure. As per 9.1.5 all targets are impenetrable, since you knocked down steel through the NS, it's a mandatory reshoot for REF. If you're going to mix steel with NS targets, the NS always needs to be behind the steel so pass-throughs don't create a large amount of reshoots. The fact that both paper and steel are NS doesn't resolve this problem.
I think Poppa Bear meant a steel no shoot instead of a paper no shoot.
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The question is how is it that he would be put into Open when they are shooing a different match right now? After they're done the stages will be redone for us Production types.
6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other
requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the
competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise
the competitor will shoot the match for no score.
or they'll just do whatever they want. at this year's single stack nationals they created an open division, and a few years ago at the production/limited nationals they moved at least one person to limited.
Really?...They pick and chose which rules they follow at the NATIONALS???
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http://www.uspsa.org...ils.php?indx=50
Question:
If my handgun becomes dislodged outside the course of fire, can I trap it so it does not fall to the ground without being disqualified?
Answer:
If a competitor's gun is partially dislodged from his holster while outside a COF, and the competitor "traps" the gun in the holster (trigger not exposed), he may do so without penalty. The competitor should immediately proceed to a safety area and address any necessary equipment issues. If the competitor's gun has left the holster (trigger is exposed), the gun must be treated as dropped. Even if the competitor is able to "trap" the gun before it falls to the ground, he must safely and securely lower the gun to the ground in accordance with 10.5.3.1 and call for an RO to safely retrieve it as per 10.5.14. Note that drawing and/or handling a firearm outside a safety area remain prohibited actions subject to DQ per 10.5.1
I am not sure I get it and it could just be me being dense but doesn't this just add further confusion? The question refers to outside of the course of fire and the answer uses a rule (10.5.3.1) refering to during the course of fire to describe how you can trap and then safely lower the gun to the ground. How can the trigger be exposed and you trap it and then safely lower it to the ground outside of the course of fire without handling it?
I see what you are saying about the ruling is about outside a COF and the rule they point to for reference is a sub-rule under a COF rule. Okay, we are all good on that part. Now, I believe we can't "read into it" that much - they are merely looking for the words "maintains physical contact with the handgun/placed securely on the ground or object"...let's stop there. Now, if you read that ruling again with only that wording, don't look at 10.5.3 or 10.5.3.2, just look at the wording, it would read, "Even if the competitor is able to "trap" the gun before it falls to the ground, he must safely and security lower the gun to the ground <insert wording> and maintain constant physical contact with the handgun, until it is placed firmly and securely on the ground or another stable object <end of insert> and call for an RO to safely retrieve it as per 10.5.14."
Now that makes sense and we are not confusing the "COF" during or outside stuff. I'm not on the board and can't speak for them. However, as a CRO, this is how I see it and how I will interrupt it if it comes up unless I hear something different.
Hope I didn't confuse it even more
Simply put my question is how do you "safely and security lower the gun to the ground" without handling the handgun as reminded in the last sentence of the answer "Note that drawing and/or handling a firearm outside a safety area remain prohibited actions subject to DQ per 10.5.1" ?
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http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=50
Question:
If my handgun becomes dislodged outside the course of fire, can I trap it so it does not fall to the ground without being disqualified?
Answer:
If a competitor's gun is partially dislodged from his holster while outside a COF, and the competitor "traps" the gun in the holster (trigger not exposed), he may do so without penalty. The competitor should immediately proceed to a safety area and address any necessary equipment issues. If the competitor's gun has left the holster (trigger is exposed), the gun must be treated as dropped. Even if the competitor is able to "trap" the gun before it falls to the ground, he must safely and securely lower the gun to the ground in accordance with 10.5.3.1 and call for an RO to safely retrieve it as per 10.5.14. Note that drawing and/or handling a firearm outside a safety area remain prohibited actions subject to DQ per 10.5.1
I am not sure I get it and it could just be me being dense but doesn't this just add further confusion? The question refers to outside of the course of fire and the answer uses a rule (10.5.3.1) refering to during the course of fire to describe how you can trap and then safely lower the gun to the ground. How can the trigger be exposed and you trap it and then safely lower it to the ground outside of the course of fire without handling it?
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This was a popper that the base is separate from the body. There is no hinge.
I've not seen this kind of a popper before so it's rather difficult to comment on the design. But if it fell forward when it was supposed to go back I would be sorely tempted to call this REF regardless of how many times it was hit. But, because it did go down then shooter is pretty much stuck with the score as shot.
Here's a question I'm fuzzy on. In a case like this, where the RO observes an apparent problem with a mechanical target, should the CRO, RM or MD be called to have a look at it? I know that as an MD I would want to have a look at it as soon as possible to keep there from being any reshoots because something was mis-behaving.
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And as an aside, how can you have a popper that is not hinged? Can you have a popper that just stands there like a plate does? Isn't that pretty much asking for trouble?
Here is a design similar to if not the same as what the OP is refering to... http://www.horseofiron.com/index.php/USTB-Universal-Target-Base-USPSA-IDPA ...and yes in my opinion this and some of the other designs are asking for trouble.
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Shooter takes 3 shots to drive down a stubborn popper. The popper makes a funny twist, but falls forward. As the popper is falling, the RO mutters "That's supposed to be a rearward falling popper."
Should the RO order a re-shoot? I know there is a camp that is going to say "if you shoot it down, you own it." But if the RO sees the popper isn't bahiving as intended, and that it has affected the competitors run, isn't he required to order a re-shoot under 4.6.1?
This was a popper that the base is separate from the body. There is no hinge.
The way I see it is that there are no rules dictating popper design and there probably should be. I think the calibration procedures work well when dealing with a rear falling popper that does not have loose bolts or a worn out hinge and is set up and anchored well. It does not work so well when poppers are used that are in need of repair, just thrown out there on loose ground, or are of some other design. I have seen the popper design you speak of fall in every direction imaginable due to an off centered hit, so I don't think awarding a reshoot due to it not falling the direction that the designer thought it should is valid.
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A Range officer's first and most important duty is safety. If it is un-safe it is a DQ, it is that simple. I'll site the closes rule then it is up to the RM/MD or arbitration board to figure it out. And this DQ is issued for the benefit of the shooter, he is the one that might be riding Air Life and a short flight runs about $10,000.00.
This one will work:
10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area
or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command
issued by, a Range Officer.
I didn't give the command to "Cock and not Lock". When it hits the holster make ready is over. Now go to Philiadelphia and find 3 lawyers that will agree on anything.
So you would say that it would be fair to DQ a competitor under 10.5.1 if they were to "make ready," holster their gun then re-draw it to take another sight picture?
Keep in mind I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'd like to get a full grasp on the entirety of the situation and any possible implications.
No that is allowed in USPSA but not IPSC and I personally think we need to go with no loaded sight picture but until we do you may do that within the prescribed distance limit.
Next we will have to carry a protactor to make sure if it was just 180 or 181, this is a total judgment call, so if in my judgement it is unsafe your day is done. The whole intent of the rules is to keep it safe for the competitor the spectators and the RO. I'll do some more rule reading and find one that will stick I know its there, some where.
At the very least the RO should not start the shooter as he in not in one of the defined ready conditions, or if you can't dig on that one, then when he goes for the hammer issue Standby, followed by the creeping call and remedial action for the cocked hammer. Not happening on my watch.
Ron, I think the point that is being made here is in response to this "When it hits the holster make ready is over". The shooter is under the "Make Ready" command until he assumes the start position and fails to give any negative response to the command of "Are You Ready". Between those two point the shooter can unholster and reholster as they wish.
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For you guys that like >2 hits on a target: Please leave spare targets, extra tape, target sticks and a staple gun at the stage! If you have 50 shooters shoot the OP's stage, that's 450 hits (if no one misses
)Later,
Chuck
Huh? 50 shooters X 3hits per target = 150 rounds, right? So you might need two changes on the rear targets, if doing one on the front.....
The OP's stage in the very first post of this thread requires 8 hits to the rear target.
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I doubt that you will find an RO that will let you start that way even though it may stand on it's own it is not "lying flat". The WSB used the words "lying flat" which most would understand as the gun being on it's side.
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OK permission has been given.
To begin with, JA said his original response was to a general question about shooting while holding a magazine in the other hand. His response was a general one to that question.
My question delt with the specific issue of SS and Production and table starts. Here is the relevant part of my question and his response.
What I understood before the match was this:
Table start, all mags on table, loaded gun. You could shoot and reload to
your hearts content from the start position as the mags on the table are
legal at that point. However, as I understood it, once they left the start
position the mags had to be stored in some manner behind the hipbone to be
division compliant.
The confusion seems to be that folks are reading your correspondence with
the individual to say that you could also just carry the mags in your hand,
and one might also say mouth, arm pit, etc., and not store them behind the
hipbone as required by the division.
We know it has been ruled that a mag in the front pocket is not division
compliant, but it would be OK to carry it in your hand if you wished?
As to the WSB are you saying that you can violate the division equipment
placement of behind the hip bone in a stage with mags on the table start
unless it isn't specified in the WSB?
Sorry to be so dense on this but I am thoroughly confused.
Gary
John's response:
Gary,
No, the WSB does not override the rule, 5.2.4 states in it unless otherwise
prohibited in the WSB a person could carry a mag in their pocket or apparel
and retrieve them as long as the pocket does not violate the requirements of
Appendix D item 12 (subject to the provisions of rule 6.2.5.1).
You are correct in the statement below that as long as they were at the
table or barrel, reload to heart's content, but once you leave, the mag for
Production/Singe Stack divisions must be behind the hip bone. The question
asked did not stipulate division, so the answer was a general answer with
the comment that common sense had to be used, thus, if the division
restricts it, it cannot be done. Of course, if you wanted to carry the mag
in your hand and shoot strong hand, you could have the hand behind the hip
bone. :-)
John
So on with the game.
So if to carry a magazine in your hand in Production or Singlestack it must be behind the hip bone then wouldn't you have to carry it within 2" of the belt in any division?
10 Maximum distance of handgun and
mags/speed loaders from inner side of belt
Handgun and Mags - 2”
Edited to add that I feel like carrying a magazine in your hand should not be subject to any of the equipment position requirements and only posed the question to point out how I feel some of the interpretations are getting a little hard to define or enforce.
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Still not sure how I can be a B Open if I'm
shooting 54 - 58%?
C'est la vie.
Most likely your stand n shoot skills are a bit stronger than your shoot on the move while negotiating a complex course skills. Most of the classifiers favor the stand and shoot skills.
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I don't think he means force enough to compress anything but the slop in the base pad. In Single Stack,do they allow you to compress the spring on the back sight in order to fit the box?
If that was directed at my post, you are exactly correct. Making the basepad pull up against the magazine is my goal. As Brazos Custom already noted there is usually a bit of slop on the fit on these things and I would like to remove the slop from the measurement.
Gary
How much slop are you going to allow to be compressed for measurement? It would be simple enough to machine (or allow it to wear over time...LOL) the slot in the base pad that the tube flange engages large enough to add capacity yet compress and still fit the gauge. If you were to measure without compressing the base pad you would actually be measuring the lenght in which it will be used.
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I would support a rule change that only allowed only one attempt that is always sent in.
Why?
What would it help?
It might help bring some integrity to the classification system.
My feelings are that you should shoot each stage of the match only once(unless there was a valid reason for a reshoot) and the score you earn on the classifier gets sent in regardless of how good or bad it is. Besides, the score you earn on your first attempt at a stage is the game you brought that day, nothing more nothing less. Shooting a classifier multiple times and sending in the best score can lead to an artificially high classification, or possibly even set the HHF for the stage artificially high.
Sure. And having a row of tanked classifiers go in, can depress someone's score --- and that becomes a problem when the competitor is accused of sandbagging....
USPSA's goal for the classification system is that shooters should turn in a performance that represents a realistic approximation of their current skill level. If a shooter truly blows the classifier, giving 'em another crack at the problem (for classification only) isn't a big problem in my book. Multiple reshoots until we get a score we like are....
Much like anything else in life, the trick lies in finding the balance....
There is a device in place to protect from tanked classifiers....
No scores that calculate to less than 2 percent are used. Also, to prevent unusually
low scores from affecting your classification percentage, scores that are more
than 5 percent below your classification bracket (e.g. a score of 34.99% for a Cclass
competitor) are not used for classification purposes.
While in theory a policy allowing reshoots to "turn in a performance that represents a realistic approximation of their current skill level" sounds good, in reality the system is being abused ( some of the posts here make that apparent).
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I would support a rule change that only allowed only one attempt that is always sent in.
Why?
What would it help?
It might help bring some integrity to the classification system.
My feelings are that you should shoot each stage of the match only once(unless there was a valid reason for a reshoot) and the score you earn on the classifier gets sent in regardless of how good or bad it is. Besides, the score you earn on your first attempt at a stage is the game you brought that day, nothing more nothing less. Shooting a classifier multiple times and sending in the best score can lead to an artificially high classification, or possibly even set the HHF for the stage artificially high.
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I would support a rule change that only allowed only one attempt that is always sent in.
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I would bet good money that the guys who can....with the time,money,facilities,sponsorship,etc...build very similar stages and shoot them as practice leading up to a big match.
I'll take your bet..... don't think it happens at the top.
I'll take that bet as well.
I have seen some local matches attempt to set up stages of an upcoming major match and bill it as warm up for said match, and I guess it is ok as a novelty which might even attract a few shooters. However, I am not a big fan of it and don't see the benefit. I don't believe it is possible to duplicate a stage from a posted diagram and get it close enough to learn anything specific to the stage you will find when you get to the match. You may even hurt yourself in loosing some of the openmindedness (is that even a word?) you may have otherwise had when you see the stage for the first time.
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Can you post the WSB or a link to it if it is a classifier?
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Nemo, I think it's just like any other Level III major match ...... if he shot the PERCENTAGE of the next higher class, AND was 1st or 2nd in his class, AND there were 3 National-level GM's in his division ........ then he gets a nice letter in the mail from Sedro Wolley, congratulating him on his accomplishments.
This is true, unless it would bump you to GM, then the above doesn't apply. A GM card has to be earned by shooting the classifiers well or if not shooting them again and again until you shoot them well....
Here is what the rule book says, and it would appear that you can get bumped to GM with a match finish.
Your performance in larger matches and tournaments may also be used to help
establish classification. Placement in a major event with a score above your
assigned class percentage may result in your being promoted to a higher class,
even if your current average is lower. Winning first or second in class at an Area
Championship or Major Tournament AND shooting into the next higher class
may result in promotion (except to Grand Master); winning High Overall in an
Area Championship may promote you to Grand Master class. In addition, if you
score 95% or higher at a USPSA national championship, you will be immediately
moved to Grand Master class for that division.
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Or... Take the LaRue mechanism and attach a real plate (start with a 10"...?) to it off of a tall, skinny, vertical arm. It would be the "correct" shape for distant rifle targets that we are used to already (such as MGM or R&R for example), and if engineered properly could be made to accept different diameter plates to accomidate changes in range and MOA to keep things fair for the limited crowd.
What say you?
I built these plates as an attempt to fit within USPSA rules and have used them at local 3-Gun matches. Set on a firm base and adjusted light they worked fine out to 300 yards.
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Bullet impact at angle to face of target
in USPSA/IPSC Rules
Posted
My issue with being asked to use an overlay on a target shot from an angle comes from past experiences with shooters who insist that because the hole in the target is wider than the circle printed on the overlay that somehow that should be seen as a double, which is not always the case. An oblong hole in the target caused by a shot (or two shots?) from an angle will not have any edges that match the radius of the circle on an overlay, thus making it useless in my opinion. I have no issue with a shooter asking me to re-examine a target and will look for any signs that a second bullet may have went through the same hole, I just don’t see how placing an overlay on the target, just because the shooter used that terminology, is going to help me as an RO to make the proper call.