IVC
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Posts posted by IVC
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2 hours ago, bcane98 said:
Nowhere does it say in the rule book that extending a stock or pushing a button (or switch) is grounds for DQ prior to the make ready command.
Actually it does, in 10.5.19:
10.5.19 Failing to point the muzzle of a PCC at a side berm or back stop during casing/uncasing or removing/replacing on a conveyance or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted. Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing or removing from/placing on conveyances only. All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer. The berm/backstop is not required while removing/returning a properly flagged PCC from/to a vehicle providing all other safety rules are followed.
It specifically forbids turning the dot, and it clearly shows that ANY handling is a grounds for DQ. I don't have a dog in this fight, but if we are to quote rules we do have to be at least correct in what the rules say...
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11 hours ago, s2000red said:
IVC, it is addressed in Appendix E and the penalty is 6.2.5.1.
Sure, but that's not magnet-specific. It's about the location of the gear. A magnet might not be a "magazine pouch" - it could be a man bun hair clip holder...
Agreed otherwise, I thought he was singling out magnets as being specially addressed...
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On 10/29/2020 at 8:34 AM, mreed911 said:
If the magnet is there - mag or not - during the course of fire, you move to open if the magnet is in front of the point of the hip.
The only reference for magnets I have is in the appendices and the verbiage is:
- Each magazine must be contained individually within the magazine pouch. Magazines may not be retained through magnetic means.
That does not mean that the magnet cannot be there, only that the magazines cannot be used to retain a magazine. What rule are you looking at?
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^^^ Thanks. I thought so...
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On 10/28/2020 at 11:03 AM, Sarge said:
You can carry muzzle up or down but just know you can still muzzle your feet or legs with a flagged PCC.
Hmm, I looked it up and it clearly says, in bold, that it can be either muzzle up or muzzle down. Still, I believe I recall rules saying that the RM could choose one direction and declare it the only valid direction. Was this an old rule that got updated? Maybe I'm just seeing things...
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3 hours ago, broadside72 said:
Actually this is required since the firearm is not the correct ready condition so you can't be started. If the firearm ready condition is loaded start then you aren't loaded if no mag is in the gun. Remember a loaded gun includes a mag with ammo in the gun, does not have to be chambered in that case. The RO can only ignore you failing to chamber a round.That's funny, I have to use that line next time
Glossary specifies "loaded" as having a round/dummy round in the chamber or in the magazine. Having chambered a round from Barney made the gun loaded. I still really like your thinking...
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3 hours ago, BoyGlock said:
So the interpretation and application of the rulebook depends on the level of matches?
Are we talking theory or reality?
And, in this case, it was all by the book - there is no rule that says how the command must be said or what the body language needs to be. So, it comes down to the fair application of the rules, which it is if the whole squad feels it is.
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It is not coaching since it is an approved command and the rulebook doesn't specify how it must be pronounced.
This is the type of stuff that we shouldn't sweat - at higher level matches the RO-s will be (or are expected to be) quite professional and "by the book" so they will simply go through the paces without emotion or providing hints. At lower level matches, it's usually part of the local camaraderie and it's done more for an effect - the shooter blew that stage even if he figures out where the targets are and finishes them off. No big deal either way.
Just a month or so back I was on my first stage at a local match, brought along my girlfriend and was making sure she understood the process so I wasn't quite concentrating, I got the "make ready," assumed the start position.... nothing.... waiting... nothing. Look at the RO, he looks away, I am confused, half the squad is laughing, I touch my gun and feel the empty magwell. It was a good laugh and I didn't win anything because there were no prizes anyways. I'd say no big deal at L1, but I certainly wouldn't expect that at higher level matches and would consider it wrong, even if it's technically a gray area.
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The call was not correct and the RO could have even given the interfering shooter a procedural penalty per 8.6.2. However, at L1 matches a lot of things go, including having non-certified officials and all sorts of incorrect commands and procedures. It's not right, but it's just the fact of life. Think of L1 matches as training for the RO-s as much as they are training for the competitors.
Personally, I would not allow a competitor to interfere like that and would award a reshoot. There is a reason RO is responsible for the stage...
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6 hours ago, motosapiens said:
this seems like one of those areas where overzealous RO's can try to figure out ways to screw shooters over that are not doing anything unsafe. As such, it probably needs to be addressed more carefully in the rulebook, like most of the other ways have been. I can turn my pistol dot on while the gun is in the holster. I don't see anything wrong with unfolding the stock and turning a pcc dot on while holding it safely vertical, but I do acknowledge that a certain kind of RO might interpret that as not allowed by the rules (it certainly isn't unsafe).
Not all rules are directly unsafe. Some rules are there to avoid potentially unsafe situations. For example, if you have a dummy round in the chamber or handle it at the safe table it's not by itself unsafe. Neither is not having a chamber flag if the PCC is unloaded.
Changing the rule to allow handling PCC at the berm would require also allowing the same handling of the handguns at the berm, which in turn would promote berms to the safety areas. Could be done, but why? Everyone gets to handle guns in the same areas now, what's wrong with that?
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The problem is that the "course of fire" begins at "make ready" and not when you start shooting. If you have it on the magnet when you get the "make ready" you are having it on the magnet during the course of fire...
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If you want staff to reset everything, the entry fee will be higher.
There are many threads about this. The latest one I saw had a good comment, along the lines of "if you go to a takeout food joint and expect the service of a sit-down restaurant you are going to be disappointed." Full service comes at a price.
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It comes down to speed and speed comes down to precise, relaxed movement. Tense up and your muscles will limit how fast your arms move.
To work on raw speed, both reaction and movement, I set up 0.5s par time for the complete draw (about 0.2s faster than your normal par time) and force myself to get to the gun and jam it towards target, whether I get the sight picture in that time or not, whether I make it at the beginning, middle or by the end of the second beep or not, whether it's pretty or not... I am ingraining the raw speed of movement and reaction time. My focus is on how my muscles feel and what I need to do to get my arms to move that fast, filtering out any inconsistencies in the draw. Actually, I focus quite a bit on everything that is wrong during such a draw so that I can correct it at normal speed and then internalize it at top speed.
But, as some pointed out, be careful and very deliberate with what, why and how you're working on in dry fire. A "bad" rep will NOT create bad habit if you recognize the problem. Only a bad rep that you believe is good will create scars.
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1 hour ago, broadside72 said:
I'd like the option to be able to clear a squib and continue on. If I can unload and strip the slide and knock the bullet out quickly then reassemble within 2 minutes, I should be able to. Just like any other malfunction.
Too much potential for dangerous activity, so it's best to keep the rule as is.
It's just a matter of time before someone tried to clear a live round that is stuck because of a broken extractor or something similar. Once the barrel is clogged, it's best to eliminate the time component and take care of the situation (RO cannot allow a loaded gun to leave the line). Safety first.
Allowing a reshoot on an actual squib is also not an option - I could have a "special magazine" with a powderless round that I could reload in a pinch to force a squib and get a reshoot. We should just leave the squib rule as-is, it's a good rule
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The question is whether it is a "production gun that had some work done" or it is a completely different gun that is not on the list. Allowed modifications are covered in the rules in case of former, it's not allowed in case of latter.
Based on what you say, it looks like a production gun with some work done and appears to be legal.
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Short answer - Not allowed, DQ per 10.5.19 (as pointed above).
The "berm exception" is not for handling, just for casing and uncasing. It's an alternative to showing up at the line with a cased rifle (as a side issue, some Open shooters will show up at the line with a cased gun, then after Make Ready will take it out and holster). Any gun handling is still only allowed at the safety table.
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5 hours ago, Sarge said:
This isn’t all that hard. If I KNOW the score that’s how I call it. If I’m in doubt it’s a reshoot, regardless of what the shooter thinks.
What if the shooter challenges you?
Say, there are only three holes and you gave him A, M because you know the previous shooter had 2A. The shooter says "I have 2A." How do you handle it, especially if the RM gets involved? (Not challenging you, just asking.)
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4 hours ago, Sarge said:
Disagree. Rule says score “sheet”. I have been able to remember how many shots a previous shooter fired at a target. I can often even remember the Previous hits on certain close targets.
2 hours ago, motosapiens said:is remembering the target the same as reviewing previous scoresheets?
Hmm, the full wording at the end of 9.1.4 is:
Reviewing previous score sheets is prohibited; targets must be scored as is, using the actual target as the basis for the scoring call.
If you use the "I remember previous competitor" (which is usually a euphemism for "the previous guy didn't have anything unusual in his score, so it must have been two hits"), are you scoring based on the actual target alone? My concern is just that some relatively simple scenarios can have multiple causes and if the shooter challenges it, how do you justify it? Specifically, what do you do if there are only 3A holes on the target and you claim the previous shooter didn't have a Mike, but the current shooter claims two of the three holes are his?
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2 hours ago, mattx said:
Also a finer point, in the case in question, competitor was shooting 40 and existing holes were 9mm. But, if the competitor was shooting 9mm and existing holes were 40 the argument is that a 9mm round could pass cleanly through 40 hole and a reshoot is required? Found that case by searching these forums.
It depends, but make sure you understand that it's not about the size of the holes, but about the ability to determine the score.
Even if the holes were the same caliber, most of the time the score can be determined IF the RO notices in time and can tell how many holes were there to begin with. If you have 4A scores AND the RO sees that there were 2A holes from the previous competitor, THEN you can determine that the new score is 2A whether the same caliber or not. The other good example is when you have a different caliber, so the untaped holes are of different size and simply ignored. There is a possibility of what you ask, that there are two .40 holes and just one 9mm hole when the shooter is shooting 9mm. That would be a reshoot if the competitor claimed his bullet went through the unpatched hole, which is a possibility so the break goes to the shooter (unlike a "perfect double" which is scored as a miss).
The point I brought in another thread still remains for same caliber - even if you have 4A on a target, the RO *must* know that there were *not more than two* shots from the previous shooter. Otherwise, it could've been the previous shooter hitting 3A and the current shooter getting A, M. Goes without saying that if you have 3A, C, then you also don't know who got the C. Since reviewing previous score sheets is prohibited in scoring, there are two problems with scoring same caliber: (1) you cannot use the previous score to assign shots on the target and thus, by elimination, figure out the current score, and (2) you must know/see the *number* of shots on the unpatched target (cannot say "the previous guy only shot it twice" as that would be using the previous score).
In reality, lower level matches will use by far the most likely scenario of four shots, which is to assign two and two to the previous and current shooter. The higher level matches will resolve it based on the challenge by the shooter as the target is scored.
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18 hours ago, matteekay said:
Mea culpa across the board.
Ooops, didn't see this... My browser was acting up, I guess. Seems like it's resolved, so ignore my post saying what we all agree on now.
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20 hours ago, matteekay said:
The same reshoot/no reshoot rule would apply if the shooter called the squib and a stop (rather than the RO).
Squib = Scored as shot
No Squib = Reshoot
Squib is not a grounds for reshoot, no matter how or who called it. It's a malfunction that will terminate the COF (and the shooter is not allowed to attempt to clear it during a COF).
The only reshoot that is related to a squib is if the RO makes a mistake - calls a squib, but it wasn't. A shooter cannot play this game since it would be ripe for abuse. Any time someone misses a target or messes up a reload they could call a squib, see that it didn't happen, then they get a reshoot. It shouldn't be that way. What a shooter who suspects a squib can do is check it (on the clock) and then decide whether to continue (if he is certain it's not a squib), or terminate the COF (no need to blow up his gun to make a point).
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Funny timing of this thread as I just scored a case of Montana Gold 147 CMJ (with covered base), so I guess I'll be finding a use for them :-). Whether they end up in the open gun (unlikely), PCC (also unlikely, but possible), CO/Production (most likely scenario), it's all I could get at the moment and it was pure luck since as soon as I ordered it was again out of stock. The price was not bad, $352 for 3,000, so it's less than 12c/round, pandemic pricing.
Strange times we live in...
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7 hours ago, MikeyScuba said:
2.9gr N320 165gr .358 Ibeji’s @1.85 Fed100 Blazer brass = 128pf
You like them loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong...
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1 hour ago, Aircooled6racer said:
Hello: I have big hands so I can just use the 90 degree mount as my thumb rest. My thumb fits in the space between the two legs. Thanks, Eric
Interesting idea, but I think my fingers wouldn't reach all the way out... Worth checking out.
PCC handling ?
in USPSA/IPSC Rules
Posted
We can argue whether the rule 10.5.19 actually forbids anything beyond muzzle direction, but I would say that the plain reading explicitly forbids gun handling. Am I wrong?