[Electronic Ear Muff Recommendations]

I decided to get the Walker Ultimate Power Muff. I am amazed at the sound suppression and the microphones work well. They stay in place too. They are by no means slim though.

[Electronic Ear Muff Recommendations]

Has anyone tried Walker Ultimate Power Muff?

[Accuracy - What would you do?]

Did you fit that bbl, or was it fit by Apex?

I fit the barrel. That was the first time I ever did anything like that so I watched Randy's video several times and I took my time. Mine required minimal material removal.

While I certainly can't shoot as good as some of you, I thought I would share my latest results:

I got my Dawson Sights on so I had to try her out tonight. I was just out practicing/plinking and then I decided to do a test with my last 12 rounds. Although I did see improvement in my shooting with the Dawson Sights (~35% reduction in group size when combined with the SDI), I wanted to give the factory barrel a chance to redeem itself so I tested both barrels. First I put the factory barrel on and shot 6 shots at 24 yards with my hands resting on my tactical bag. Only 5 of the 6 hit the target. Of the ones that hit, there was at least an 8” extreme spread (my calipers don’t measure that big). I did forget to take a picture of those. Then I took the next 6 shots with the SDI. No other changes were made. Here’s a pic.

[Accuracy - What would you do?]

Not a fan of the xd at all.

Why no love for the XD?

[Accuracy - What would you do?]

I am hoping you will stay on this team....I have enjoyed your posts. Anyways, if you do feel like you have to move on...XDm?

[Accuracy - What would you do?]

While I certainly can't shoot as good as some of you, I thought I would share my latest results:

I got my Dawson Sights on so I had to try her out tonight. I was just out practicing/plinking and then I decided to do a test with my last 12 rounds. Although I did see improvement in my shooting with the Dawson Sights (~35% reduction in group size when combined with the SDI), I wanted to give the factory barrel a chance to redeem itself so I tested both barrels. First I put the factory barrel on and shot 6 shots at 24 yards with my hands resting on my tactical bag. Only 5 of the 6 hit the target. Of the ones that hit, there was at least an 8” extreme spread (my calipers don’t measure that big). I did forget to take a picture of those. Then I took the next 6 shots with the SDI. No other changes were made. Here’s a pic.

[Accuracy - What would you do?]

Molon,

Amazing shooting as always. Obviously your gun is a shooter with this setup. I am curious to know if your slide has any play when in battery?

[Accuracy - What would you do?]

B585, I just went to a Ben Stoeger offset drop BladeTech for my CO gun and I love it. My wrist has flexibility issues and the slight drop that CO division allows works better with my wrist as compared to the Blackhawk it replaced. The BladeTech is designed to work with or w/o a red dot. Their BladeTech comes with their SS finger screws to adjust the tension.

It's a quality unit and well worth the price. Just an off the wall comment, so are their Ghost mag holders.

Thanks. That is good to know. I ordered one and it is supposed to be here on Friday. I am looking forward to trying it out.

Let me know how you like.

It took me a bit of playing with it to get it right (typical of all belt gear IMO), but I have a cant that works for me and I'm right above the belt, so I'm good to go. Once it's locked in it's not going to move.

My experience with holsters is pretty limited so take this for what it is worth, but I am very happy with this holster. Easy to adjust, easy and quick to draw from, yet it keeps the gun secure. Very happy with this purchase.

[Accuracy - What would you do?]

Where do you get HST bullets? Are they pulled? And are they more accurate than XTP's?

While doing some dry-firing today I noticed that when the striker is released, frequently there is horizontal movement of the dot. This probably explains why I'm getting horizontal spread, even with the Apex barrel. It appears that, while the Apex barrel has tightened up the barrel-to-slide fit as well as the vertical movement of the slide on the frame, there is still considerable movement side-to-side between the slide and frame. The inertia of the striker seems to be enough to upset the slide. I'm not sure how to deal with that except to try to spread the front rails / locking block a little bit. I took a measurement and there is a full hundredth of an inch difference between this locking block rails' outside width and one of the others that I have. I could order a spare one to play with, but I'm afraid that it might make the fit with the Apex barrel loose if it's not as tall.

To give you an idea of the amount of play, if I wiggle the slide side to side, the muzzle end will actually touch both sides of the inside of the dust cover area of the frame. The more I play with this gun, the more I wonder if design and production was secretly outsourced to Kel-Tec. Anyone have any ideas on the easiest way to open up the rails a tiny bit (without peening them)? I need to check the movement of the rear of the slide to make sure the rear rails aren't allowing a whole lot of sideways play as well... if so, there isn't much I can do about that one because if I make the front rails wider but the rears are still an issue then the slide will just pivot sideways around the front rails. I feel like if I can cut down on this movement, I can probably shrink the groups with the Apex even further (and maybe even improve on the terrible OEM barrel a little as well).

Mine does the same thing. I have no idea about fix. Right now the gun is more accurate than me so I am content.

[Accuracy - What would you do?]

B585, I just went to a Ben Stoeger offset drop BladeTech for my CO gun and I love it. My wrist has flexibility issues and the slight drop that CO division allows works better with my wrist as compared to the Blackhawk it replaced. The BladeTech is designed to work with or w/o a red dot. Their BladeTech comes with their SS finger screws to adjust the tension.

It's a quality unit and well worth the price. Just an off the wall comment, so are their Ghost mag holders.

Thanks. That is good to know. I ordered one and it is supposed to be here on Friday. I am looking forward to trying it out.

[Accuracy - What would you do?]

Molon,

You have got to be the same Molon from AR15.com and others. Nobody provides this meticulous of testing and data than you. Thank you for this post and your countless other threads on the other forums. As a distance shooter first, I have learned more from you than other person about testing, groups, data collection, and analyzing data. For anyone not familiar with this guy, when posts, play close attention because you will get a lot out of it. Glad to see you on this forum also.

[How much do I track the front sight]

Thanks for the video.

[Accuracy - What would you do?]

TR,
I hate to be the barer of bad news, but there are other possible factors that could be causing your results besides the barrel. First, your optic could be coming loose only when you are shooting the factory barrel. Another strong possibility is the Coriolis Effect. I realize all these "scientists" say the earth always spins at same rate, but my own data had confirmed they are wrong. For example, I have been shooting from the same range in the east to west direction and sometimes I hit higher or lower than anticipated which is proof to me that the earth must be changing its speed....I can't come up with any other conclusion other than shooter error which I know can't be possible. I do have admit I am not sure how the earth knows how to alter its speed so that each day is exactly 24 hours...Anyways, getting back to your example, if your loads have a muzzle velocity of 6' per second, it will take your bullet over10 seconds to reach its target which would make you off by more than 10 MOA assuming the earth is spinning at its "normal" speed in the central US....even worse in Florida. I bet you never even considered those possibilities.

[Accuracy - What would you do?]

Well, I got to try out the Apex barrel and all I can say is THANKS RANDY!!! I was shooting with my hands rested on a bag at 30 yards (my range finder said 31 yards). Everything was completely cold (these were first shots of today). I am still using the factory sights and factory cheap ammo so I think it is safe to say that the groups could have been a little better with different sights and better ammo, but I am very happy with the results!!! As soon as I completed this group, I started practicing drills, etc. and I couldn't believe how much better I was shooting. Best of all, I now have the confidence that if I don't hit the target, it is MY fault. For someone that is still fairly new to shooting pistols, I can't stress enough how much more I enjoy shooting this gun because now I can accurately gauge my skill level. I have included a picture of my groups with the factory barrel at 28 yards after it was heated up (which always produced the best results). Each target was a different brand of ammo/weight of bullet. Each target I took 10 shots. On the ones with less than 10 holes, I missed the 6"x6" target (the center target was not mine). The second picture is my 30 yard group with the Apex. I only shot it 7 times (all hits) and this was the first ammo I tried (Magtech 115). I had ZERO malfunctions with ~250 rounds today. I couldn't be happier with this purchase.

[Accuracy - What would you do?]

Thanks for the feedback. I still shoot long range competitions on a fairly regular basis, but I haven't ever done any comps with a pistol. I would like to do IDPA/USPSA in the production class this summer after I get some more practice and a little more comfortable with all the procedural stuff that comes with action pistol shooting. I really need to get used to drawing quickly so I want to get a hoster and mag holder now. I think I am going to ahead and order the Blade-Tech that fits the CORE and some mag holders.

It is amazing how much different action pistol is from 1000 yard comps. I readily admit that quick shooting has humbled me...it is a totally different kind of shooting, but I am now completely hooked. It is still hard for me to get out the mindset that the sights don't have to be in perfect alignment to take the shot (or that you can shoot more than 1 shot in a minute..haha), but I am working on it. I hate that there isn't a range in close proximity that allows rapid shooting, but I am making due and seeing progress on my double taps, etc.

I just got my SDI, Apex Comp Spring Kit, and RAM installed today. I think everything is working right so I can't wait to try out the new barrel and see what it can do. I did the barrel exactly like Randy said to in the video with the barrel not completely going into battery when you slowly release the slide. The one thing I did notice was that when feeding my home defense ammo (Speer Gold Dot) is that if don't release the slide quickly, it doesn't feed. Is that normal? I did fire off a total of 8 rounds without any malfunctions. I also noticed that now the slide has no play when in battery (with my original barrel, there was significant play) so I am hoping I will see a significant improvement in the accuracy of this gun. Especially for someone still relatively new into pistols, it killed me before that when the shot didn't hit where I intended it to, I didn't know if it was me or if it was the gun...I guess that is the one similarity that I have found between long distance shooting and action pistol. Other than that, they are totally different IMO.

One other comment....I am really impressed with this forum. I have been a member of numerous forums for guns and diesel trucks and I love the lack of bickering and drama that goes on this forum. Thanks everyone for their feedback/help.

[Accuracy - What would you do?]

I realize this is kinda off topic, but holster are you using on your PC? I was thinking Blade-Tech and using the one built for the CORE even though I won't be using an optic. I was hoping to run low pro Dawson sights so I called them and got what they recommended, but the rear sight didn't fit. I am hoping I they make a low pro that fits the PC since I won't be co-witnessing.

[Accuracy - What would you do?]

II just got off the phone with S&W... I had sent the gun back and told them the accuracy was poor. Guess what... They told me that it shoots fine, and they are sending it back to me untouched.

I protested, told them I would send them pics of targets I shot, told them I understand that "accuracy problems" are often the fault of the customer but that this wasn't the case -- told them about the difference with the Apex barrel. The guy said that they are still sending it back to me and I should try it out. I asked why I should expect something different when the gun hasn't been fixed, repaired, replaced, etc. -- he said maybe they "adjusted" something and didn't note it. (Really?!?) I asked what ammo they put through it. The guy said that he believes they use cheap bulk 115gr ammo. He said that "the guys know what they are doing... they shoot all day, everyday." I asked what distance they test fire it, and he said 10 yards and the gun shot a 1.5" group during test firing. Normally, I wouldn't be at all happy with a full-sized game gun that only shoots 1.5" groups at 10 yards. In this case, I'd be f'ing thrilled if that really was the case since my gun is regularly firing 4-5" groups at that distance.

There is no way in hell that they put any reasonable amount of ammo through the gun (and by "reasonable", I only mean at least one full magazine) and think this gun shoots good enough to tell me that they "couldn't replicate the problem" unless (1) the stars, moons, planets, and galaxies all aligned and they got so lucky to shoot the first ever good group out of the gun, or (2) their standards for "good enough" are so piss-poor that 10"+ groups at 20 yards satisfies them on a plastic gun that cost $700.

He told me that if I'm still not happy, I can send it back AGAIN. For what? They freaking still have it there... I told him I'm not going to be happy since I wasn't happy when I shipped it and they didn't do anything to it... why does it need a return trip back to me and then back to them in order for them to give it a second look?

If it wasn't for Apex, I'd be selling this gun the instant the FedEx guy left my front porch. If I'm this irritated by the principle of the whole thing, imagine how annoyed I'd be if I actually didn't have an (albeit expensive) aftermarket solution.

I really hate to hear this. I used to be a big fan of Smith and Wesson/TC. Myself and friends/family have always had good luck with their pistols/rifles in the past. I am extremely disappointed with the accuracy of my "Performance Center". I had one group at 25 yards around 4" and that must have been a fluke because I haven't seen anything that good again. I have had others shoot it (always with a rest) with the same disappointing results. It has been consistently inconsistent (it may shoot dead center, high, low, left, right) all in the same mag. It shoots better when it is hot, but still not what I expected for this price point. Based on the response you recieved, it sounds like management just doesn't care and that explains why these poor performing (in terms of accuracy) pistols are leaving the factory (every company lets one slip every now and then but this certainly seems like more of a trend then a fluke). To be fair, mine has been 100% reliable to date. Sill, like you said, if it wasn't for Apex, I wouldn't own this gun. Hopefully, S&W will take note and change their expectations/policies. There are many other choices out there that don't require aftermarket parts.

[Help me make sense of the M&P accuracy issue.]

I suggest to all that are having accuracy issues to slug their barrel. I have heard of several that were way undersized, and were shot out very quickly. As for the groups getting better as the session goes on, metal expands when it gets warm...could be something in the gun likes it warm instead of cold. I would suggest keeping it in the fridge for an hour or 2 and benching it to see how it groups, then heating it slightly to do the same. Couldn't hurt, right?

I think you hit the nail on the head...I went to the range again. I brought 6 different brands of bullets (of varying weights) and put 6 targets up all at the same time at 25 yards. The gun was at ambient temps when I started (~65 degrees). I fired 10 rounds of each bullet using bags at each target one right after another (as fast as I could load the mags). The first two were horrible, but then the groups started to improve (which may partly due to the ammo) with the last 2 being the best. When I was done going through each brand of bullet, I reversed the order and found similar groupings on the last bullets I had used, but there was considerable improvement on the ones that were originally terrible (the first bullets I tested). By this time, the slide was getting hot enough that it was uncomfortable (but not burn yourself) to touch. Again, some of this may be the shooter because I am not used to using factory pistol sights shooting at 25 yards, but I think most of the issue is the gun itself.

Further testings.... I then went to other part of the range and shot one my ARs from 400-600 yards. I chose to use the AR because it only has 1-6x scope and at 600 yards, my reticle basically covers the entire steel target I was shooting at. I figured this would be similar to how I hold the sights on the pistol at 25 yards (the front dot covers the entire bull's eye). After 1.5 hours I went back to the pistol section of the range. By this time, the gun felt like it was completely cooled down. I only put up 2 targets up and shot the ammo that did the best on my previous testing earlier in the day. The results were pretty much the same. Initially the groups were poor, but that after a couple of mags, it started to improve. In any case, the accuracy is still not what I wanted it to be so I will be giving Apex a call.

[Accuracy - What would you do?]

Thank you very much for the detailed testing and report R309.

[Accuracy - What would you do?]

I know it seems that way, and I was concerned that people would get that impression. However, in a previous trip the range with this gun using the factory barrel, it was also up and down. It is just random... roll a die 10 times and you might get all 1's or all evens or all 4's and 5's or whatever. I think in these two groups, the dispersion was really left-right. In others on the previous trip, not so much.

I did check for slop. While it was nowhere near like with the Apex barrel, the factory barrel locks up okay. There is minimal wiggle front / back / side. That's what makes me think it has more to do with "early unlocking" and other factors rather than just sloppy fit at lockup.

One other thing that I noticed is that, not only does the barrel drop very quickly, it seems like there is a fair amount of distance that the slide can move out of battery and still have the trigger release the striker. That is kind of unnerving. Perhaps the barrel drops enough to move the primer out of the way of the firing pin hole... who knows. With the way the Apex barrel keeps everything in line and moves back with the slide for MUCH longer than the OEM barrel, this seems like far, far less of a potential problem.

[quote name="TacticalReload" post="2583142" timestamp="1459989561"

One other thing that I noticed is that, not only does the barrel drop very quickly, it seems like there is a fair amount of distance that the slide can move out of battery and still have the trigger release the striker. That is kind of unnerving. Perhaps the barrel drops enough to move the primer out of the way of the firing pin hole... who knows. With the way the Apex barrel keeps everything in line and moves back with the slide for MUCH longer than the OEM barrel, this seems like far, far less of a potential problem.

I hadn't picked up earlier that the apex barrel was not just an oversized copy but a different design. Perhaps not drastically so, but if the apex holds in battery longer then that seems to be part of the solution.

I think you have a good point. The follow up video said it fired out of battery which was blamed on the ammo....

http://youtu.be/PJg4hjqPlQs

[Help me make sense of the M&P accuracy issue.]

With my experience using the factory barrel, it was very hit and miss (pun intended). You might get a three shot group that was very small or you might get three total flyers... I had a couple that went a good 6" off at 10 yards. That's why I shot at least 8-10 shot groups with the factory barrel. You can see in the pics that I posted in my other thread about the Apex barrel that one of the factory groups had literally zero hits out of 10 that were even within 2" of center. The other had about half of them in the center and the other half spread out about 2-6" away. If I shot only a three shot group and they just so happened to have hit the center out of dumb luck, I could easily just say that the gun is fine and it must be me or the ammo or something else... like flipping a coin and getting 4 heads in a row and proclaiming that it MUST be a two-headed coin.

That's the problem with testing guns for accuracy. If you have one that works, it should work all the time and all rounds except called flyers should go where they were aimed. If you have one that doesn't work... well, you know what they say about blind squirrels and broken clocks, so you need a bigger sample size.

Agreed. Next time I will have more bullets with me, all samples will be 10 instead of 8.

On a positive note, I do really love the ergos and feel of this gun (and looks)...it fits my hand and feels so much better than anything else I have tried. Thank God for Apex so I know we can have it all....an accurate and comfortable gun.

FYI I had contacted Magna-port a while back because I knew I might be swapping my barrel to an Apex barrel and they can port the Apex barrel. You only have to send the slide and barrel so shipping won't be outrageous. IIRC she said it was $100 since the slide is already ported.

[Help me make sense of the M&P accuracy issue.]

I've never heard of a gun improving accuracy as it's fired more ...

I would attribute that phenomenon more to shooter proficiency

than to the firearm.

You may be right on shooter proficiency, but I think there is a strong possibility the gun was a major factor. Except for my 300 WM that I use for 600-1000 yard shooting and a few of my ARs, I leave the stock trigger on my guns because I believe a good trigger can mask some bad habits...I make myself shoot hard to shoot guns in an effort to avoid developing bad habits. At 10 yards, with the sights on this gun, I feel pretty confident that I was aiming in the same location each time and the groups had no particular pattern. That I believe was the gun. Now, when it came to 28 yards, my sight alignment could have been a factor (since I am used to stock Glock sights on pistols), but these groups were much better than my initial groups which also makes me think it was the gun. Finally, 2 weeks ago I shot a friend's P220 for the first time and at 15 yrds, I grouped my better than this gun did intially. My point is simply for the people who just bought this gun and are worried about accurracy, I would reserve any judgements on accuracy until you have a few 100 rounds down the pipe.

[Help me make sense of the M&P accuracy issue.]

I should preface this by saying that although I have been shooting for 30 years (mostly long distance precision rifles) until a little over a year ago, I didn't shoot pistols on a regular basis. I definitely do not consider myself a marksman with a pistol. I got to shoot 100 total rounds of factory ammo (Lawman 115 and Geco 124). For testing, I did shoot off of a bag with my wrists and and butt plate resting on the bag. I did all of my testing with 8 rounds. I wasn't rushing, but I also wasn't taking my time due to it getting dark outside. Anyways, the first 8 were at 10 yards and they were horrible. I then shot my Glock 27 at the same distance and it grouped a lot better than the M&P. I did a second round at 10 yards and found the M&P to be improving while the Glock stayed the same. I then moved my target to 28 yards (that was the only distance available). This time the M&P did better than the Glock. The M&P did seem to continue to slowly improve. Certainly, I can't completely rule-out myself as part of the accuracy problems, but the there was NOT a pattern to the groups and I did shoot the Glock good so I think more of the inaccuracy was due to the gun itself. On my last 5 shot group at 28 yards, I got it down to a little over 4". That was without an optic. I am hoping that I will continue to see improvement as it gets broken in. I really need to test other loads to see what it likes.

[Help me make sense of the M&P accuracy issue.]

I ordered a 5" PC 9mm a while ago and it is getting in today so I am picking it up after work. I am going to disassemble and lube it and then headed to the range. I am hoping this will be a "good" one...I will post the results either way.