MAC702
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Posts posted by MAC702
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So aren't I agreeing and adding a reminder to a shooter not to wait for that redirection?
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"Next shooter!" is not the appropriate time to be switching guns. Anyone can do it any time at a Safety Area.
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9 hours ago, JRM83 said:
In regards to whether a handguard is a foregrip, a person could remove the handguard and then grab the barrel just like it was a handguard. What now? A barrel is a foregrip?
No, I'm arguing that a typical AR handguard is designed as a horizontal foregrip. A barrel is not. So grabbing the barrel would be akin to, well, grabbing the barrel of your Mauser C96 or Walther P38: a less effective/safe grip, but not illegal.
Now, an obvious barrel shroud or padded suppressor would be the type of handguard where this would be a harder argument.
I'm just outlining my thought process. I don't intent to come off as definitive or canonical.
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20 minutes ago, ziebart said:
...You don't need a cart, but some may disagree with me.
Right.
With a good bag or two, you can definitely get by without one. But you'll be watching us and thinking: "Darn, I need one of those..."
And for those of us shooting Heavy Metal, the ammo weighs twice as much...
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3 minutes ago, Garmil said:
What is the uspsa definition of handgun then?
Well, it includes a PCC!
Okay, not really. Sorry. We just have to insert "and/or PCC" whenever we see "handgun," mostly.
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The AR carbine has a "handguard" and it is very much designed as a horizontal foregrip. A typical AR pistol's handguard is identical in construction.
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I see your line of thought, and give it merit, but I do note that every instance of the ATF source specifies "vertical foregrip."
The ATF specifically would allow a Magpul AFG, and USPSA would clearly not. I think. Right?
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You aren't crazy. I've recently started getting some sideways ones as well with my Dillon 650. I recently switched from 9mm to .45 and honestly can't remember which one I was doing when I got the sideways ones. I think it was 9mm, in which case it was Winchester primers. And before the 9mm, the machine was torn all the way down, cleaned and lubed; then again before the .45
I've always had a 0.5 - 1% complete upside-down primer on .45, with every brand of primer. I've lived with it for ten years, and still haven't figured out the pattern as to when it could be doing that or why. I do know that at least some of them were not the first or last to be loaded into the tube.
At least with the sideways ones, I feel it, and pull the case, and reprime it. With the upside-downs, you don't find them until inspection, or when you get the "poof!" and smoke coming out of the breech...
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21 minutes ago, Garmil said:
The atf sees a difference between fore grips and handguards.
an ar pistol with a handguard is a pistol. Once you add a foregrip it becomes an "aow"
look at just about every ar pistol sold. They have handguards. The uspsa rule is preventing things that make guns not a pistol.
Everything I've seen has the ATF specifically saying a "vertical foregrip" or "forward pistol grip" on a pistol is an AOW. They even mention the Magpul AFG as an angled foregrip and legal.
https://johnpierceesq.com/does-the-atf-treat-angled-fore-grips-the-same-as-vertical-fore-grips/
EDIT: I don't know why my tags caused the entire second half to be underlined. It should have only been the phrases "vertical foregrip" and "pistol grip." I also can't figure out how to edit the underlining out. BEnos seems to use a very difficult editing box, compared with every other forum I'm on. Sorry.
Do you know of a source where the ATF refers to a difference between a "handguard" and a non-specific "foregrip?"
EDIT again: Some Googling actually gives me pause on the matter. Each use I find of "foregrip" on an AR is referring to an angled or vertical one. But we all know that neither USPSA nor the ATF will always make common sense in the application of a word or rule.
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So there is no foregrip here, right? This would be the equivalent of a weird grip where someone is grabbing the dustcover of their traditional pistol, right?
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/cookie.jpg
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I edited my last post to show why I think a handguard counts as a foregrip. Now, I've seen AR pistols with a bare barrel and gas tube, too.
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39 minutes ago, Gooldylocks said:
You would have to grip it like a pistol, you cannot have a forward grip of any kind. I would take that to mean the handguard as well
5.1.10 prohibits a foregrip (or shoulder stock) from even being on the handgun.
EDIT: Garmil beat me to it, however I think a handguard counts as a foregrip, as a vertical foregrip is not specified and is a common term. Now I have some more thinking to do tonight.
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Hmm, could it have an arm brace/blade? You know, actually used AS A BRACE?
Now I want to see it done with a Mauser C96 and strippers.
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42 minutes ago, jwhittin said:
So technically speaking the DQ offense happens the second the competitor removes his hand from the firearm without engaging the safety, correct? And this applies to any firearm with a hammer back (SA or DA). Or in general any condition in violation of 8.1.
That's how I'm seeing it as well. You can load the gun for MR, and hold the cocked/unlocked pistol all you want during your MR. But as soon as you holster it or set it down in that condition, you've violated the rule.
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I'd be ticked if I had to use Facebook for an official rule clarification. I'm not on Facebook, either.
So, here it is in the official PCC Rules Addendum, first paragraph: "All references to “handgun” in the current edition of the rule book are deemed to apply to PCC as well, except where PCC is noted in the rules." (https://uspsa.org/document_library/rules/2016/PCC_Rules_Addendum.pdf)
Now we can clearly apply 10.5.7
I'm glad for this thread. I hadn't considered it yet. Now, I need to check my rules for Steel Challenge because I frequently have my centerfire pistol on me in its holster while I shoot with a rimfire, as do several others.
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9 hours ago, The_Vigilante said:
...What other pistols are in that family?
Any Smith & Wesson pistol with a "69" in the model number. Should also fit a Kel-Tec P11, and you might have to shorten the magwell a bit and it would work in a Marlin Camp Carbine 9mm.
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Just going from memory, I'm thinking the Smith & Wesson 6906 family.
EDIT: Now I googled those mags, and am pretty sure that's it. S&W 469, etc. Sometimes I amaze myself.
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Good question. It seems the way to go for me. My only SBR is a Colt M4, and I didn't want a 9mm upper for a standard AR lower, nor the hassle of another registration, so I didn't do SBR. I'm also not really into PCC for USPSA yet, but more for certain multigun matches that allow it, like Hard as Hell. So, I went with a standard-length CZ Scorpion and am looking forward to trying it out.
If I was hardcore into PCC, I think the SBR is the way to go, especially for barricades, walls, etc.
As for issues, there may be some states where you can't take it if you travel for matches. And there are some who think that you have to file paperwork every time you want to take it out of state, even if it's not for commercial purposes.
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26 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:
...MAC702 - If this were cleared and settled, we wouldn't have had the "fun" opportunity to air the subject. Thanks for your patience!...
Agreed; thanks for listening and helping me think about it in a few more different ways to make sure I still had the same opinion.
Sometimes it blows my mind the details in some rules, and the complete lack of detail in other rules that affect things we see everyday in the sport.
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5 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:
... Remember that 8.1.2.4 specifies the RM is the final authority on this subject. I have outlined to you how I, as the final authority, would make my decision....
Yes, but 8.1.2.4 details specifics for 8.1.2.1 and 8.1.2.3. It is my reasoning that the pistol falls under 8.1.2.2, and therefore has clear rules not needing the arbitrary authority of an RM, though I certainly respect the authority that you have and thank you for your service to the sport.
It seems to me that if the pistol isn't a DA, and therefore not under 8.1.2.2, then we have this discussion.
You are saying that if you don't know a pistol's operation, you are going to choose to move the pistol into a category where THEN you get to decide what constitutes a safety. I don't think that's part of your authority. There should be a clear definition as to what category the pistol is. I'm surprised this isn't clear and settled, actually.
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4 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:
Absolutely correct ... sort of. It does expressly state that for firearms which fall under 8.1.2.1 or 8.1.2.3 when said safety must be employed in order to comply with and avoid the consequences of 10.5.11.
As I pointed out to Nik, however ... Can you tell me, model by model, make by make, off the top of your head WHICH striker fired guns fall under which rule? I can't ... And I've been in this game since WAY before striker fired guns (and PD) became popular. Hence, when working as the RM, I have little choice but to rely on what I can see and verify. If it has a thumb safety, use it.
I don't need to know every make/model's exact armorer's knowledge. If you don't know otherwise, you should be relying on the owner's explanation and trust that he has learned his pistol. If you suspect he's trying to pull one over on you, then you need to go to the books or higher match authority. When a pistol is available with and without external safety levers, and everything else being the same, the matter seems quite obvious.
If the safety-equipped M&P pistol was required to have the safety engaged, I think we would have an argument that the version without the safety would be an unsafe firearm for the sport.
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Oops. My bad. I forgot to double-check the conversation stream. Thanks.
It never occurred to me that the S in 92FS wasn't the same S in 92S. And now looking at the chart that flows from 92 -> 92S -> 92 SB -> 92F; I see my error in that.
Still a safety, of course.
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5 hours ago, Southpaw said:
That's not what the "S" is for. The "S" is for the stop they added to the gun to prevent the slide from flying off the frame and hitting the shooter in the face. Both the 92F and 92FS have manual safety/decockers. The decocker only model is the "G", (e.g., 92G).
And yes some striker fired guns are DA, some SA, and others DA/SA...
Can you point us to a source for your S variant? All of the sources I find, agree with this one:
I apologize for the big chart. I tried to do a link to its page, but a spam ad came up instead, then the link to the chart itself automatically embedded it. I remember researching this issue quite a bit before I bought my Italian surplus 92S.
I thought the slide reinforcement was during the late 80's, or are you referring to something else?
The rest of what you wrote I would agree with, and I didn't say otherwise. But you are now calling it a safety, whereas previously you said it wasn't.
An M&P has a camming action to finish the full cocking of the striker before it fires. Until a magic line is drawn somewhere in the sand or someone in recognized authority says: "because I said so," I'm considering the M&P to be a DAO like a Glock even if more cocked than one. Do we have an authority who says otherwise?
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15 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:
Your comparison of the M+P to the Beretta doesn't hold up. The Beretta has a traditional hammer and a decocker lever. (It is not intended as a safety.)
Do not both pistols fall under 8.1.2.2?
Beretta calls it a safety-decocker: http://www.beretta.com/en-us/92-fs/
Indeed, the reason for the S in the model number is because the safety was moved from the frame to the slide. Yes, it starts with an "s" in Italian, too.
And they have specifically made different models that have spring-loaded decockers that are not safeties.
2 stage trigger for 3 gun?
in Rifle - Technical
Posted
I shoot the M14 whenever Heavy Metal is available, so, yeah, 2-stage rules!
I have the SSA-E in most of my AR's, but recently put the S3G in the one I've been playing with when Heavy Metal isn't allowed. The jury is still out on it. I really only did it so I had experience with it, not because I think it'll really make a difference at my level.