[Accuracy - What would you do?]

No worries about "derailing" the thread. I hear you... but i don't think Glock would ever make those types of changes. They have two thirds of the LE market, a growing MIL market, and every gangbanger wanna be and mall ninja wants one. They already have version 2.0 and 3.0 and 4.0 and some in between (when it comes to generations) and the blocky grip and big hump on the backstrap are just too identifiable as Glock traits to ever think they would eliminate them. Although something like an M&P frame with an APEX trigger and Glock accuracy (or better) with a set of real sights, and an honest-to-goodness grippy textured gripframe... and I think you'd have a quite a winner on your hands.

[Apex CAEK striker spring]

That is definitely weird. Were you sure that the pistol was fully in battery at the time? With the rate that the barrel unlocks / drops and how far out of battery the slide can be when the trigger will still try to drop the striker, it's a possibility (albeit an unlikely but still unnerving one). Either way, if it was related to a weak striker spring, you would think that there would be a light dent on the primer at the very least.

[Help me make sense of the M&P accuracy issue.]

I wish I could get into the XD line... there is something about the grip safety that bothers me. In my limited experience, a high grip sometimes fails to deactivate the grip safety. It's just one more thing on there that I have to worry about. I've been familiar with the pistol since way back when I worked at a gun shop during the HS2000 days. Back then, people would snap those guns up and hardly anyone would ever bring one back with problems. They were one of the worst kept secrets when it came to budget guns that actually worked, especially coming out of a country like Croatia. Springfield really stepped into something good when they entered into that deal to start stamping their name on the gun. I wonder where they would be right now without their agreement with HS Produkt

[Apex CAEK striker spring]

I'd give it a shot and see if you like it and to verify that it doesn't lead to light strikes or function problems. The striker spring is by far the easiest part of the kit to uninstall if you're not happy -- should take all of about two minutes.

[Accuracy - What would you do?]

Makes me wonder why it's so difficult to design a good handgun... seems like a little of column A, a little of column B... and you have something that works for people better than most of what's out there.

[Help me make sense of the M&P accuracy issue.]

Ben,

Here is how I generally see it. I apologize if this gets lengthy, as I'm think it might. First off, there is a bunch of info out there; and some of it is suspect. However, I'm pretty sure what you find here is about as genuine as you're going to get online. This forum is populated by some extremely seasoned shooters; plus the beginner shooters here are willing to acknowledge that fact more readily than elsewhere. This makes for a credible set of opinions, IMO. Definitely not the same cross-section as GT, nor is it a place where brand loyalty leads to blind apologists like some of the S&W forums. The absolute hostility toward some people who have problems on some of the other forums is unreal. There was one thread where an unsatisfied owner said he was selling the gun for a different pistol and it was followed by a collection of sarcastic "don't let the door hit you on the way out" type comments.

I have a couple of friends who own M&P9 models. One has an early production 4.25" and the other has a 5" from about 3 years ago. They both had me install Apex parts into the guns so I had an opportunity to put a few hundred rounds through each of these guns. As some background, I would consider my shooting ability as good for an average shooter or average for a good shooter and no where near the skill level of a lot of the folks here. I tend to shoot fairly accurately, but not nearly as fast as I wish I did -- I'm by absolutely no means a M / GM shooter.

When I shot the 4.25" gun, I don't remember noticing anything one way or another about the accuracy at all. This tells me that it was probably about as accurate as any out-of-the-box pistol in its price range. At the time, I wasn't in the market for an M&P and so I had done zero research into any accuracy issues that the model line was experiencing... so I had no reason to bench rest the gun. When I shot the 5" some years later, I remember thinking that I should have been able to shoot it better. I still wasn't aware of the now infamous M&P9 accuracy issues, and I think I basically wrote it off as being relatively new to the platform. I didn't bench rest that gun either.

Fast forward to last year and I started to seriously consider the M&P for myself. This is when I first encountered the stories of poor accuracy. Long story short (if that ship hasn't already sailed) is that there are enough credible sources out there that I believed there to be a definite issue with some of the pistols. When people like Randy Lee talk about poor accuracy and Todd Green mentions "lock up issues", it gives it credence. Heck, even Kyle Lamb says that he replaces OEM M&P barrels with aftermarket ones -- and he literally has an M&P factory collaboration model with S&W / VTAC. That being said, it appears that there are still quite a number of satisfied owners. So I took a chance and bought a Performance Center model... hoping that a PC model might be less likely to shoot poorly (optimistic, I know).

Well, as you can probably see in my other thread, it didn't work out for me. In fact, I need to do some more testing but it appears that I might even have one of the least accurate ones I have seen reports of online. If I could undo my purchase and get my money back right now, I'd be all over that deal and call it a day. Of course, we know that's not the way it works with firearms. Now I'm almost feeling pot-committed to try to get this gun to work so I'm left to decide to either cut my losses or possibly throw good money after bad in the pursuit to get it to somewhere at least in the ballpark of 3" at 25 yards.

I won't go so far as to try to convince you not to buy an M&P. I will say that it appears that there is at least some risk that you will get one that doesn't group acceptably well for you to be truly competitive in IDPA / USPSA. There also appears to be a reasonable chance that you will have no issues at all. If this purchase represents a sizable investment for you and you are risk adverse, I'd ponder the purchase carefully. Maybe look for a used purchase from someone willing to let you try before you buy. The alternative is to go for a .40 model as it appears the problem doesn't touch that caliber like it does with the 9mm. (If you reload, you can get .40 minor down to the point where it shoots softer than 9mm.) Or you can roll the dice. I'm a little biased considering I've got a lemon sitting in my safe right now so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

[Accuracy - What would you do?]

You guys are making it very difficult for me to figure out what I want to do. Honestly, I *really* want to like the M&P platform... the ergos fit my hand so much better than the Glock and the grip angle is so much more natural. I don't even mind the factory trigger pull all that much, considering these are plastic striker guns anyway. With a high grip, I've had a couple of problems with the XD grip safety. Thumbs forward keeps the slides from locking back on SIGs and HKs for me. I could never get into any Ruger autos. And I don't have the money for a 2011. I guess I could give CZ a try, but I'm thinking if the M&P doesn't work out, I might just suck it up and stick with Glock. The only thing that would be worse than losing a bunch of money on an inaccurate M&P is to lose that money and then spend another $200 on a barrel that doesn't work out either. Once I fit it to the gun, I'm kinda stuck with it, win or lose -- but I don't know what will happen until... well, until it happens.

[Accuracy - What would you do?]

The barrel definitely drops out of battery very quickly.

I agree with what you said about the accuracy. As a shooter that usually ends a stage with slower times but better accuracy, feeling confident that dropped points are my fault and not the pistol is critical for my style of shooting. Plus I participate in GSSF indoor style matches that allow non-Glocks to enter... which is all about accurate slowfire. As someone who has never really felt 100% about the fit of Glocks to my hand or the grip angle, going to the M&P would be an ergonomic godsend. Now if the dang thing would just throw bullets where I pointed it, we'd be all good.

No pressure, Randy... but I'm counting on you and your product to save the day! If the SDI barrel works for me, I'll probably still send the gun off to S&W to see what they could (or would be willing to) do with the ported barrel option. However, I would feel a lot more comfortable with selling off a Glock or two and replacing it with more M&Ps with their own SDIs installed.

That actually brings up a good point. Has anyone successfully sent a pistol to S&W and received a "better" gun? If so, what did they do beside simply replace the barrel? Was there any fitting done that affected the slide dimensions or slide-to-frame fit that would affect the gun in a way that would mess up the fit of a previously installed SDI barrel? If that's the case, I'd be better off sending it to S&W first and fitting the Apex barrel after it came back.

[Accuracy - What would you do?]

Just out of curiosity, what ammo will you be running?

The reason I ask is that it seems that some believe that a barrel will be the Holy Grail that will guarantee the gun will shoot sub- minute of Quark, regardless of the ammo, or who holds the gun.

Clearly this is not the case. What I can tell you is that with factory Fiocchi 115 jhps, PRVI 147 gr jhps, Winchester WinClean 124 gr and a variety of handloads, our SDI typically shoots 1" or better out of a Ransom at 25 yards. That is why we state that the SDI usually holds 1.5" at 25 yards off of a rest (with good ammo and shooter)

The last SDI I tested for function was in a MA compliant 4.25" gun with a 12 lb trigger pull. At 10 yards (remember, I was testing for function and not accuracy) it put the first 3 shots of 124 gr Federal Hydra-Shok through the same hole that measured bullet diameter. This was done off hand with Iron sights.

When you get the barrel, the most critical aspect is how the barrel locks up vertically on the locking block. Some guns out there have atrocious vertical slide to frame clearance. Whichever barrel you use- SDI or Gunsmith Fit, the barrel should be rock solid at both the front end of the slide and at the chamber end, even as you pull the slide back .100".

And of course, if you have any problems fitting the barrel, we are just a phonecall away.

Thanks, Randy. I have my fingers crossed so hard that it hurts.

I have no problems with varying the load to find one that works. 115, 124, 147 grain. I'd prefer not to shoot factory loads for the sake of cost, of course; but I have been reloading for over 15 years and am pretty sure that I can find something that works if the gun is capable.

I'm not looking for a sub 1" bullseye gun. Honestly, I'd settle for 3" at 25 yards at this point based on the fact that I could not get it to consistently group that well at SEVEN YARDS as is. I had read all the problems that people were having with these guns, but I took a chance. I sold my Glock 19 MOS (because it doesn't fit my hand very well) at a loss to plunk down money on this pistol hoping that I wouldn't lose the accuracy lottery. Looks like I did. I hate the idea of having to turn around and drop $200 into a pistol just to get it run acceptably, but if that's what it takes and it runs as well as claimed then I'm okay with it. I would be ecstatic with a 1.5" group out of a ransom rest. I'd be satisfied with a 2.5" group. I don't have a ransom rest, but I know what I typically can and can't do off sandbags so anything as comparable with a factory Glock would be acceptable.

Before I bought the gun, I tried to feel around to see how it locked up. When it battery, it seems to be reasonably solid. Of course the slide to frame fit rattles, but the barrel seemed okay. One thing I notice during dryfire is that it seems like the slide jumps forward a hair when the striker releases -- that doesn't make me feel so confident, but I'm not sure if that means anything.

Randy, one thing... I read that apparently the place / method of removing material from the muzzle end of the barrel when fitting has changed since the first ones came out. Is the material removed from 10 and 2 o'clock or is it removed from somewhere else (12 o'clock, etc.)?

And what happens if, after properly fitting the barrel, the gun still shoots poorly? Let's hope that doesn't happen, but this gun is quickly turning me into a glass-half-empty type of guy.

[Accuracy Problems]

I just realized that I never updated the thread with my results in case anyone cares. I switched out the factory crimp die with a standard one, loaded longer, and took a lot of the belling out of the powder drop station. I know I changed multiple things as once, but I'm impatient. Regardless, it worked out... the loads are now as accurate as I figure a factory Glock can be so I'm happy. Thanks to everyone for your help.

[Accuracy is coming...]

Memphis... can you give an update?

[Which Optic for M&P Core Ported]

For people who have never used a cowitnessed pistol dot, it's hard to understand exactly how the process works. I know because I was there, too. I was afraid that the cowitnessed irons would block out half the already small window when you look through the glass to see the dot. I think what he's looking for is BUIS that line up on target at the lower 1/3.

The thing to understand is that as long as you can see the dot in the window, regardless of where it is placed in the window, it will generally still hit where the dot is. So if you look at the window using the BUIS properly lined up, the dot will appear on the top of the front sight. If you look "over" the sights and place the dot on the target, it will still hit POA/POI even if the angle is such that the rear BUIS isn't even blocking any of the glass. So, with a lower 1/3 cowitness, when using the BUIS, the dot will be in the lower 1/3 as well. When placing the dot in the center of the glass or higher, BUIS aren't going to be lined up.

I guess the best thing to say is simply that it's not going to be as busy as he's afraid it will be assuming the combo of sights and dot are of a height of that cowitness lower 1/3. A combo I have that works in that aspect is the RMR with the CORE's stock sights. (I just wish there were no dots on the rear sight.) The FF3 has a taller base so the tops of the factory sights barely clear it.

[Accuracy - What would you do?]

Thanks Jack and Brian. I already checked the RMR... it's locked down well. The fact that I tried shooting a group with the BUIS and ended up with no difference in size also tells me that it's not the dot. The plan is to take it back to the range with the two factory boxes I bought (Remington 115gr and Winchester 147gr) along with a box of HST JHP that I have plus some of my handloads that I have found to be the most accurate in my Glock 34. I'm going to clean, lube, and fire it from a bench at 20 yards onto a shoot-n-see sight-in target and see what happens. Then I'll do the same with my Glock 34 just for comparison. If (when) I'm disappointed with the results, I'll phone up S&W and give it a shot. ..

I hate to say this, but you're going to find the same poor result. I gave up on trying to improve the accuracy of my 2 M&P Pros. From Storm Lake to Wilson Combat, and the latest APEX sdi barrels. Maybe a gunsmith fit would be better but I already have CZs and Glocks that can outshoot these M&Ps without any custom work. The Apex sdi improved grouping at 25 yds, but not significant enough over the factory barrel for me to keep so I got rid of it.

Ugh... I just ordered an Apex SDI. You are the first one I've heard who has said that there is disappointing accuracy with it. How bad was it with stock and how bad with each of the barrels (ballpark group size at 25 yd)?

[Accuracy - What would you do?]

It has the VQ drop in trigger kit, but IIRC it's running the stock extractor. The last shot I took actually is lodged in the chamber and I can't get it out. I'll have to bang it out with a squib rod but I have been so disgusted with my day of shooting that I simply haven't even touched the range bag since I got home. I should find a local match this weekend to shoot... I think with all this bad luck that I have banked up enough good-will that something is bound to go my way soon!

I did learn that Aguila's waxy coating means that once I load over 6 rounds into my mag that it feeds so sluggishly (due to friction between the bullets and inside of the mag body) that the action cycles before a new round is pushed up far enough to be stripped from the mag. Learn something new everyday. Then I learned that for some reason CCI literally won't chamber in my gun without substantial force -- not sure if it's out of spec or whatever, but it won't consistently chamber (I'm not just talking FTF, I mean it literally don't chamber). Some Elay Match stuff I have has this problem where the first round stripped off the mag when firing gets hung up and the bolt literally bends the case in half. Some PMC ammo I tried created a bizarre situation where I thought it ruptured a case or that I had a blocked barrel -- spitting hot gas / powder back at my face! Weirdly, the best feeding, firing, extracting ammo that I used was the el cheapo Federal bulk box "value pack"... but now I shot all of that stuff and can't find more.

I need to detail strip this thing, clean it like there's no tomorrow, and check for burrs. There is something wrong with this gun. Until recently, I hadn't shot it for years. I don't remember having these issues back then. Of course, ammo was cheaper and more plentiful so who knows.

[Accuracy - What would you do?]

Thanks Jack and Brian. I already checked the RMR... it's locked down well. The fact that I tried shooting a group with the BUIS and ended up with no difference in size also tells me that it's not the dot. The plan is to take it back to the range with the two factory boxes I bought (Remington 115gr and Winchester 147gr) along with a box of HST JHP that I have plus some of my handloads that I have found to be the most accurate in my Glock 34. I'm going to clean, lube, and fire it from a bench at 20 yards onto a shoot-n-see sight-in target and see what happens. Then I'll do the same with my Glock 34 just for comparison. If (when) I'm disappointed with the results, I'll phone up S&W and give it a shot. I had to call them two other times for other guns... once when a PC revolver I received had a disastrously badly fitted wooden grip and once when there was a major cosmetic issue with the finish on another PC revolver. The latter time, the guy had me send it back no questions asked and replaced the frame for free. The former time, however, the guy gave me the third degree and required two separate sets of photos before was willing to grudgingly address the issue. Both times we were talking about $1100+ guns.

When it comes to accuracy issues, especially with one as widely publicized (and seemingly sporadic) as the ones with the M&P9, it's easy enough for it to be dismissed as operator error. Everyone thinks they can shoot accurately enough to know the difference between a gun problem and a shooter problem... despite the fact that not everyone really can. Hopefully I can convince the customer service rep that I can tell the difference. It's why I posted this question here instead of on some of the other forums... people here are much more willing to give you the benefit of the doubt when you claim the gun isn't up to snuff instead of immediate dismissing it as "practice more and your problem will go away". On a thread on the S&W forum, when Randy Lee posted up in response to people talking about the Apex barrel, one person questioned if his stated shot size (of his very inaccurate gun with stock factory barrel) was a typo and another person mentioned that he should donate to the forum since he was getting free advertising of his products. Internet commandos can be such ball-busters.

[Accuracy - What would you do?]

Okay... I took my brand new M&P9 Performance Center ported CORE 4.25" to the range today with a variety of ammo. I had my fingers crossed after reading so much about the accuracy issues with the M&P 9mm guns. Looks like I lost the lottery.

Accuracy was not good at all. At first I was wondering if my RMR's dot was walking or something so I used the cowitnessed sights and got the same results (keep in mind that I previously had this RMR mounted on a Glock 19 MOS with standard-type accuracy results). There were shots that I swear broke right on target that ended up a good 6+ inches off at 10 yards. I tried ammo ranging from bullet weights of 90gr all the way up to 147gr at various PF, both plated and jacketed; and I saw accuracy that ranged from marginally poor to downright awful. In an attempt to compare the results, I shot 3 rounds from my Glock 34 at 7 yards and 6 rounds from the M&P at the same range with the same ammo and got the following (keep in mind that this is only SEVEN yards):

Honestly, that spread for the M&P wasn't all that bad when compared to some others I was getting, but I was running out of ammo so I just snapped the photo and called it a day. Keep in mind here that the Glock has iron sights and the M&P is wearing a dot... it makes it painfully obvious during slowfire when I throw a shot so I definitely can call flyers. I didn't even bother to run this down to 20 yards (max distance at the range I used) because it would look like 00 buck from a breacher barrel. I am concerned that I won't even be keeping some of them on the paper at distances of 25 yards or more.

If I were to describe what the "groups" were like, I'd say that about 30-50% of them go where they should with the rest floating anywhere up, down, left, or right. I thought I would see a pattern (vertical stringing, shooting high right, etc.), but then the next group had holes spread out all over the place. In the picture above, there were no flyers to the right; but there could be a string of 10 shots where there were 5 or 6 to the right and none to the left. There were strings of 5 or 6 shots where not a single one was within an inch and a half of center -- and remember we are talking about distances of only 7 to 10 yards here.

The gun is totally stock including the RSA and trigger. The barrel appears to lock up fine when in battery. One thing that I will say that I noticed is that, during dry fire, once the striker drops I notice the slide seems to jump forward a tiny bit. If I slam the slide forward and give it an extra shove just for good measure, it doesn't seem to move much at all... but if I just casually cycle the slide to reset the trigger during dry fire, I notice that little movement. Despite this, it appears that the barrel is locked up regardless. Is this normal? Can anyone check their gun to see if it does this as well? BTW, I never "rode" the slide home during chambering of the first round.

So anyway... what would you do at this point? At the very least, I picked up two boxes of factory ammo (115 and 147gr) that I'm going to run through the gun one more time at the range to see if by some miracle, a change of ammo / time / scenery magically improves things. However, I have no reason to believe that it will.

Would you call S&W and see what they say? I figure most likely they will have me send it back and will then likely give me some BS line about "acceptable combat accuracy" and return it to me as is. Plus I wonder how long they would have my gun. (BTW, the fired case with the gun says it was made May '15 so I think it's got the newest barrel update.)

The alternative is that I just plunk down the $$ for an Apex SDI and see what happens. I was thinking of buying one anyway so I could give CO a try, but I don't really want to have a factory ported barrel sitting around that I know I can never use in the gun if I have any hopes of hitting what I'm aiming at. (Plus, what was the point of buying the ported model anyway, then?)

Combine this M&P experience with the fact that I also tried 6 different loads through my Ruger MKIII in an attempt to find one that would at least get through a 50 round box without issues but couldn't find one that works... and well, it was a rough day at the range today. (Has anyone noticed that .22 ammo quality seems to be going downhill lately when you can even find the stuff at all?)

[M&P Core in Production]

Isn't there a model of M&P that has an Apex kit in it from the factory? That would make any M&P with that kit in it Prod legal.

I think what you're thinking about is the Pro and Performance Center models, which come with a different sear. Not sure if the Pro and PC models both come with the same sear, but supposedly they are better than the stock ones. I'm pretty sure the springs are the same in every gun, though.

[Certain Bullets Hitting Left / Right?]

What do you think are the physics behind this phenomenon? The bullet is spinning so if it's not something specifically with the way the bullet mates up with the rifling / barrel / etc., you'd think it would lead to spread and not a shift in POI. If the bullet was lopsided (for lack of a better term) in some way -- density or shape or whatever, I would think the odds that it consistently hits left or right is unlikely.

I'll probably try loading up some with a different powder and PF but with the same OAL / case / primer and see what happens to accuracy. At this stage of my life, I would have expected to be beyond the "experimenting with loads and chasing results" phase of load development. If bullets weren't getting so dang expensive, I would have never switch off my 180gr bunny fart Clays .40 loads and tried to move to 9mm. *sigh*

[Certain Bullets Hitting Left / Right?]

When using it for practical shooting, I'd want to use the minor loads. But I also use it for GSSF-type indoor matches, meaning I need it to be as accurate as possible without regard to how "soft" it shoots. So I have both types of loads worked up but they hit 6" left/right of each other out of the same gun. Annoying!

I keep trying to think of what might be causing this... I can speculate all day about the rifling and bullet, but in the end, it's just that -- speculation. Weird, though.

If I could find a set of adjustable sights that worked as well for me as my Heinie Slant Pro QUIK race cut I'd consider a switch. I guess it's just that I've got so many rounds downrange through various Glocks wearing this sight that I'm a little hesitant to change.

It's too bad... I have some time today and tomorrow, and I was planning on cranking out 600-700 rounds on the loader. Guess I'll have to wait until I do some more tinkering.

[Certain Bullets Hitting Left / Right?]

Quick question. I loaded up a batch of rounds using a different bullet / powder combo yesterday. I'm not sure I like the results, but there is one thing that seemed a little confusing. I've previously worked up an accurate load (with different bullet / powder) that seemed to hit left. Yes, I'm shooting a Glock; and no I'm not jerking the trigger. So I drifted the rear a hair to the right and it moved POA / POI. However, in an attempt to find the most accurate load, I had to push the PF up and went with a different bullet... so for a general minor load, I bumped the bullet weight and switched to a faster powder.

The weird thing is that it seems to be shooting to the right. And I mean like probably 5" at 25 yards. I'm not 100% sure it wasn't me, though, because I just did a massive amount of strenuous yard work the day before and morning of going to the range so my arms / hands weren't the steadiest and the group was bigger than I wanted... but I didn't feel like I was pulling shots.

Is this something that is typical? That some loads group left or right of center? I can understand low and high but horizontal POI shifts seem weird, and I can't wrap my head around the physics behind something like that.

[Federal SPP Availability]

Where in Florida are you tactical?

Sorry... didn't see the post. I'm just south of Jacksonville.

[Federal SPP Availability]

I'm about to drive up to SC.

I see the Fed rifle primers and LPP, but the SPP are hard to come by. Everytime I walk into one of those places and see the Federal boxes, I get my hopes up until I see that none of them are SPP.

[Federal SPP Availability]

I used to live less than an hour from the largest Cabelas (in Hamburg, PA). Now that I'm in Florida, the closest one is about 5 hours away. I think the last time I saw Fed SPP in a store, it was at Cabelas. I should have bought a few more 1000s, but I figured the shortage would blow over by the time I used up my supply. Looks like I was wrong.

[Unique powder?]

When I was trying to drop a charge of 4.6gr of it in my 550, I was noticing some inconsistent metering (I know it's not a static issue since I live in FL). However, I still find it to be pretty accurate regardless. I figured I would use up what I have and then start working on a load with a different powder... haven't decided which yet. I'll most likely change to a coated bullet at the same time so I'll be starting from scratch again, which is annoying.

[Federal SPP Availability]

Are you folks finding Federal small pistol primers anywhere? I'm down to my last 400. I have 1k of Winchester in reserve, but I'm not sure about reliability with the light striker springs in my Glocks. It feels like Federal SPP have been in constant short supply since 2008. I'm beginning to feel like that I'm never going to be able to just walk into an average LGS and walk out with them ever again.