Hammbone
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Posts posted by Hammbone
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If you do a search, I posted several loads in spreadsheet form that has the info you need, but to recap, if you are looking for accuracy, the best powder for 9mm is Power Pistol, and N330 or N340. WSF is a good 9mm powder but if you are looking for repeatable accuracy 5.8 - 6.0 of Power Pistol, or 4.8-5.0 N340 at and OAL of 1.085 with either Hornady, Precision Delta, or Montana gold 124 gr JHP. I do all my accuracy testing by loading to and OAL that is .010 off the rifling. I then work up charge by .2 gr starting 10% below listed max charge. I then Chrono and test for accuracy in 10 shot groups. I pick the best group then I start lowering OAL in .010 increments to see if accuracy improves. Thats how I came up with 4.8 of N340 @ 1.085". Also you will not get the most accuracy if loading to a power factor of 130-135 its a compromise of recoil management. Extreme accuracy comes in at a powerfactor above 140 in my experience. A 115 GR XTP needs 1250 FPS, a 124 JHP needs 1150 fps. Best accuracy for me at 130-135 pf is with 124 MG with 4.0 gr of Tightgroup at 1.110". That in my Shadow, and Springfield 1911.
Darrell, This is excellent info! I have a couple of follow up questions:
1) What do you mean by 0.010" off the rifling?
2) What is your experience with plated bullet? What different technique would you apply.
3) What is the bullet length of say an MG 124gr JHP?
I have a bunch of RN plated bullets, but I have a theory about case volume (can't prove it yet). Would it be true to say that if I take the length of my RN, minus the length of your JHP, and add the difference to your OAL to get my OAL, we should have similar loads?
1. I make a round long where the ogive touches the lands of the rifling. I take the barrel out, put the round in and try to twist it, I decrease the overall length until the round twist freely meaning that the bullet ogive isn't touching the lands, and the case is headspacing in the barrel. I then decrease the overall length another .010 inch then start my loading from there.
2. Plated bullets will never be as accurate as jacketed. Use minimum or no crimp, do not try to push the velocity past 1100 fps. I had some good loads with Berry's plated in the past using 231 and Tightgroup powders, but that was with 147 gr bullets.
3. An M.G. 124 JHP is .576" long. When I load this bullet now I load at 1.110" because that length works in all my 9mm's and gives great performance. Best accuracy with this bullet for me is with N340 and Power Pistol.
Thank you for the feedback! It's greatly appreciated.
I happen to have some 147gr Berry's AND some Titegroup. I haven't done a lot of experimenting with this combo yet, but my initial test did not have good results in the accuracy department. I'd be interested to know what figured out to work for you (I'm on top of the MINIMUM crimp - I iterated back and forth with a tech at Berry's with pictures until he said I was good to go).
Currently, I'm trying to keep my 147gr loads around 900fps and 124gr loads around 1030fps-ish.
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If you do a search, I posted several loads in spreadsheet form that has the info you need, but to recap, if you are looking for accuracy, the best powder for 9mm is Power Pistol, and N330 or N340. WSF is a good 9mm powder but if you are looking for repeatable accuracy 5.8 - 6.0 of Power Pistol, or 4.8-5.0 N340 at and OAL of 1.085 with either Hornady, Precision Delta, or Montana gold 124 gr JHP. I do all my accuracy testing by loading to and OAL that is .010 off the rifling. I then work up charge by .2 gr starting 10% below listed max charge. I then Chrono and test for accuracy in 10 shot groups. I pick the best group then I start lowering OAL in .010 increments to see if accuracy improves. Thats how I came up with 4.8 of N340 @ 1.085". Also you will not get the most accuracy if loading to a power factor of 130-135 its a compromise of recoil management. Extreme accuracy comes in at a powerfactor above 140 in my experience. A 115 GR XTP needs 1250 FPS, a 124 JHP needs 1150 fps. Best accuracy for me at 130-135 pf is with 124 MG with 4.0 gr of Tightgroup at 1.110". That in my Shadow, and Springfield 1911.
Darrell, This is excellent info! I have a couple of follow up questions:
1) What do you mean by 0.010" off the rifling?
2) What is your experience with plated bullet? What different technique would you apply.
3) What is the bullet length of say an MG 124gr JHP?
I have a bunch of RN plated bullets, but I have a theory about case volume (can't prove it yet). Would it be true to say that if I take the length of my RN, minus the length of your JHP, and add the difference to your OAL to get my OAL, we should have similar loads?
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How was the WSF in terms of cleanliness? I'm looking for a replacement for HS-6, and WSF is a contender. ..if its clean.
I only do slow target shooting, but I still load to about a 130PF.
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Oh no, I have calipers. Multiple sets in fact. I said I eyeballed it initially, but my 124gr loads measure at 1.138"...and they're all staying within +/-.0005".
More so, I was just pondering if changing that would effect accuracy, and how so.
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Thanks for the tip on N340. I'mgoing to look for some. Looks like it has similar burn rate as HS-6.
In regards to chasing accuracy with TG, how does OAL effect it? I shoot a mostly box stock Beretta M9. It'll eat anything I feed it, so I don't think my gun is going to be my limiting factor on OAL. How I got to my current OAL is by eyeball. I'm seating/crimping the bullet so that the edge of the case mouth is just behind the start of the ogive.
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I finally got a chance to get out and test accuracy on these loads. Although the Tightgroup had the smallest ES' s and SD's acrossed the chrono, they were down right crap in the accuracy department. Based on what I experienced, it should be valled "Widegroup". HS-6 at 6.3gr with 124gr plated bullets at 1.138" OAL were tack drivers! Although HS-6 does leave my gun a little dirty. It leaves behind what I assume is partially burnt powder. They're little semi translucent balls that look almost like little pieces of gel. Nonetheless, between the two powders that "I" have, I'm sticking with HS-6. I'd rather have the bullet go where I aim it than to have a clean gun.
I've read TG works better with jacketed bullets. So I'll hang onto it and get a few jacketed to try.
Being thrilled with the accuracy of HS-6, I'm hesitant to try anything else. Although if I did, it'd just be get a cleaner burn. There's a LOT of talk about N320, but people also claim TG is their back-up to N320, so I'm reluctant to try it based on my accuracy problem with TG. Having said that, I'm intrigued by N330, but I don't read a lot about it.
My main purpose is slow target shooting, so low recoil for speed isn't my goal necessarily. Although I do try to load to about a 130PF, even though it doesn't mean anything to me or the club I shoot at.
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I tried to buy some WSP at a gunshow in early November. I was laughed at. I was told the "Feds" placed a huge order of 10mm for the DoD - somewhere near the tune of 4Bil rounds!? So it's all hands on deck to supply this demand. The vendor told me the supply lines are going to be dry for 1.5yrs.
I ended up finding a box of 1,000 Federal small pistol primers.
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I'm not going to get into a debate, but the way I see it is the FCD is a crutch for improper setting of your dies. The carbide ring smooths out the brass and the bullet to yes aid in reliability of feeding in semi-autos but at the cost of accuracy due to deformation of a bullet. I'll state that this only applies only to lead and plated. With FMJ it has little if any effect. Have a look at the link I posted. Fred over there has done extensive testing, and I have done so with my own loads. He's got pics posted.
No debate requested. I apologize if I came across as though I was picking one. I am honestly just trying to learn about the Lee FCD. I started reloading 6mo ago and purchased a Lee Classic Turret press and the Lee 4-die set. I've been using it because it came with it one and figured I "had" to. I may load up 50rds while skipping the FCD to see if I notice an accuracy difference. Thanks for the tips.
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For the 124 grain bullet, seems like I'd be shooting for around 4.0 gr
TG -
Do you have any recommendations on OAL?
With the 124gr I'm at 1.138"
With the 147gr I'm at 1.146"
Those sound like good OAL's IFF they feed through your mag/gun.
If you have any functioning problems, try shortening them a bit.
After you get a load you like - you might try different OAL's as a
final step in "tweaking" your load - might be little more or less
accurate with a different OAL.
Of course, your velocity could change at different OAL's as well,
so keep checking your chrono as you change OAL's.
Thanks. Everything functions fine. I'm going to leave things be with the OAL until I get my head wrapped around some of this other stuff.
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For the 124 grain bullet, seems like I'd be shooting for around 4.0 gr
TG - then I'd go load up at least 20 -30 of them, and test them for
velocity, feel, functioning and accuracy; with the 147 gr, I'd shoot
for around 3.3 gr TG, and test 20-30 of them in more depth.
Do you have any recommendations on OAL?
With the 124gr I'm at 1.138"
With the 147gr I'm at 1.146"
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I have friends that have M&P's and one of them I load for. Plated, lead and Bayou Bullets all 147's and never an accuracy issue.Some barrel/rifling combinations don't like 147gr and heavier bullets out of handguns.... I had an issue with M&Ps personally.
I have a strange feeling he may be using a Lee FCD which would answer all his accuracy issues.
Oh please do elaborate, or at least point me in the right direction. I use a Lee FCD. Is there a known inherent issue with these? (not being sarcastic. just asking.)
If there is a problem with the LCD it's usually swagging down of the bullet because the die is adjusted incorrectly.
Lead and plated bullets need to be over sized for the bore of your gun in order to seal. The FCD irons out the case and bullet.
So what I'm hearing is, it's PRIMARILY a set-up issue? I went through an iterative process with a tech at Rainier's. With my Lee Classic Turret press, I seated a bullet, ran it through the FCD, then disassembled and took a pic and sent it to him. We iterated this way until he said "Yes, good!"
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Wow. Thanks for all the feedback guys! You have all pointed out some 'obvious' things that I completely overlooked. I'm still learning....but having a blast doing it!
I just loaded up qty (50) rounds of 124gr bullets with 4.0gr TG. I'll take them to the club Thursday for an accuracy test.
open17HS-6? It really doesn't like running partial case loads. Probably not the
best choice for minor 9, but it does well in major 9 loads.
I noticed at minor velocities it does not burn clean at all. Leaves a mess on everything. Cases, slide, barrel - just a mess.
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I have a strange feeling he may be using a Lee FCD which would answer all his accuracy issues.
Oh please do elaborate, or at least point me in the right direction. I use a Lee FCD. Is there a known inherent issue with these? (not being sarcastic. just asking.)
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I'll try to keep this short:
Been reloading for 6mo. Just got a chronograph and used it for the first time today. I had 3 basic bullet/powder combos to test.
124gr plated w/ Titegroup
124gr plated w/ HS-6
147gr plated w/ Titegroup
With the Titegroup loads, I noticed a point of diminishing returns. In fact, there appears to be an optimum load in terms of the lowest spread and standard deviation. Loads past this point really get sporadic.
With the HS-6, each set of 5 shots was MUCH lower than the remaining 4 shots. Still scratching my head on that one. If I ignore the first shot each time, the data doesn't look to bad - but I don't think I can ignore that first shot.
Take a look at my data and let me know what you think.
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Okay. This just in. (First yes, make sure you have the right crimp - pull a bullet and you should just barely see a witness of a crimp...to a point where any less you'd see nothing).
I've been reloading for 6mo, but just now got a chronograph. I made a bunch of "experimental" loads. One of them happened to be with Berry's 147gr and Titegroup. (I shoot a Beretta M9). Here's what I discovered:
3.0gr TG = Hi-845, Lo-816, Avg-826, ES-29, SD-11
3.2gr TG = Hi-892, Lo-855, Avg-874, ES-37, SD-15
3.4gr TG = Hi-922, Lo-906, Avg-914, ES-16, SD-6
3.6gr TG = Hi-939, Lo-893, Avg-904, ES-46, SD-20
I'm not going to pretend like I understand what was happening here, but past 3.4gr things got sporadic! Average PF was actually HIGHER at 3.4gr than 3.6gr and a much tighter window (133.2-135.5, avg-134.4 for 3.4gr. 131.3-138.0, avg-132.9 for 3.6gr).
Try 3.4gr and see what happens!
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By whose standards? The powder maker guide, xyz bullet maker guide, a company making reloading equipment quide. Hmmmmm.........as they all present different starting and ending data, different velocities for the same load and different amounts of grains to load.
I hear ya! This drove me nuts when I started loading. I'm a numbers guy (Engineer by profession), so my philosophy is the more data the better! But when I set out researching load data when I first started, I quickly found that more data = more confusing! So I started with the lowest of all data sets I had and worked my way up.
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STOP!!! Do not try and use tricks designed for rifles in pistol loads. The two things are miles apart. Rifles use a much slower powder and about 10x more of it so the ratios don't work.
Regardless, there is not a straight line increase in velocity to charge.
Thank you. This is really the question I am asking. I know the Lee manual discusses the topic regarding rifles. They happen to list data for a powder I am using for 9mm (HS-6), hence the spawning of my question - will this work for pistol as well. Looks like the answer is - No.
Thanks.
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You can do the math, but for my guns, I came up with 135 PF out of my 5" barrel and 124 PF out of my 3" barrel, using the exact same load for both, with 124gr bullets.
IIRC, it's roughly 100fps.
Well, with a 124gr bullet
124PF = 1000fps
135PF = 1089fps
A delta of 89fps, or 44.4fps/in
...so it's in the ballpark.
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YEP........Not a typo, but a victim of late night posting. Good catch and thanks for noticing!
No problem.
You know what!? You're onto something here. I took this bit of info you gave me and re-examined my load data. I used the Lee load book for my 147gr bullets with HS-6. I'm using BRY's 147gr plated bullets, but Lee only listed 147gr XTP's with HS-6. So I started at the starting weight and worked my way up. Published starting charge weight was 4.3gr @ 773fps and max was 5.0gr @ 885. (COL is another story. In a nut-shell, I seated my bullets to have the same head space as an XTP, so my COL fell in at 1.150" whereas the XTP's would be at 1.100"). For powder charge I ended up at 4.8gr. It just felt the best at the time and was most accurate for me. At a later date I chrono'd these rounds and found I was right around 903fps. NOW, if I linearly interpolate the data published in the Lee manual, it would've suggested my velocity would have been at 853fps. But when I apply you're rule-of-thumb you enlitened me with to accommodate for my 4.9" barrel vs. the 4.0" barrel that is tested, it says my velocity would be 898fps at 4.8gr. 5fps off! That's pretty darn close!
Going forward, I am going to monitor this with all guns/ammo combos I work up.
Furthermore, this generates another question; Almost all published data posts results from a 4.0" barrel. When loading for a gun with a longer barrel, this 50fps/inch rule is going to automatically pump up the velocity. So say I select a data set and pic a charge weight in the middle, but this 50fps/in rule boost the velocity to a velocity higher than that of the published max load, does it imply I am also now at a pressure higher than max load?
Disclaimer - regardless of all this, I will always always always work my loads up and chrono them along the way. I'm just asking for the sake of theorizing.
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Thanks for all the input guys.
Do it the old fashioned way and work up slow, then keep good notes so you have an idea how that combo reacts.
Good not luck but research.
Since this is all uncharted territory for me, I will definitely be going slow and taking good notes. I was just curious if anyone as analyzed their results and if there is any correlation with this reduced charge theory. I will definitely be taking good notes so I can correlate it myself....all while staying within the published min/max data.
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Approx rule of thumb is 50 FPS/sec. Guideline So.........4.9-3.07=1.83*50=91.5 FPS.
Thanks for the tip. Obviously, I will test this, but I just wanted to see what folks' had experience with so I could somewhat know what to expect.
BTW - Did you intended 50FPS/inch?
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I have been reloading for my Beretta M9 with a 4.9" barrel. I have some chrono data for the 147gr ammo I reload. I just picked up a Beretta Nano with a 3.07" barrel. I won't be able to get to the range with it for a while now, but I'm curious what difference I'll see in velocity with the shorter barrel with the same ammo. My recipe is:
147gr BRY RN
4.8gr HS-6
905fps w/ Beretta M9
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I'm about to set out on another DOE (design of experiment), but I wanted to get some insight from others first.
I started reloading about 6mo ago. I load 9mm for my Beretta M9. Reloading has been a blast, and very intriguing to me. It opened a whole new door to shooting, and I find just as fun as shooting itself. Starting out, I picked a bullet and a powder and just went to town experimenting and learning. (This post is NOT about a specific powder or bullet, but I will mention what I happen to be using).
I purchased a Lee Classic Turret press kit. It came with Lee's 2nd Addition Load Manual. I've read it a few times. Something I found interesting is the discussion on reduced charge loads. Now, granted, I'm pretty sure he's talking about rifle loads here. But my question is, does the it work for pistol loads? Furthermore, does it work in reverse? It has to right? For example; I am using Berry's 147gr RN bullets and Hodgdon HS-6 powder (Is it the "best" combo - I don't know. But that's not the point). The Lee manual suggest, that on AVERAGE a 1% reduction in powder charge results a 1.01% reduction in velocity. I've been shooting 4.8gr of HS-6 with 147gr BRY RN with a COL of 1.150". These chrono at 905fps on average out of my gun. I would like to work up a load to the 940-950fps range with this same powder and bullet. (At this point, I know what I know with my equipment, and I'm beyond what load data may suggest).
Here's the question; If I go backwards to what Lee suggest by dividing 4.8/(1-.01) and 905/(1-.0101), and then those results by (1-.01) and (1-.0101), for charger & velocity respectively, until I get a velocity in the 940-950 range, will that get me there? As anyone taken this approach?
I know I 'could' just start loading a bunch of experimental rounds at increasing charges and chrono all of them, but I'm really trying to get my head wrapped around the physics of all this.
Thanks.
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Well, you have all relieved some of my concern. I found one. I moved a bunch of stuff and did a full sweep. One is still missing, but it's probably in a "safe" place.
How to find the most accurate load?
in 9mm/38 Caliber
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Did you get a chance to look at your load for 147gr Berry's w/ TG?