Montana3gunner

So far so good. You've got to push on the handle pretty good, but so far it's working.

Billdozer, I shoot quite a bit of 3 gun and I had the same thought. I posted this in another thread because the one thing I need to figure out better is how to deal with the trimmer taking up so much space and a vacuum attachment. It's already been suggested that a GSI 650 .300 BLK toolhead might work for the vacuum attachment. You can see where I used duct tape on the trimmer...that worked marginal. The reason I posted this question is that I set up a 650 toolhead to process .223 range brass in one pass. No, not loading on the same toolhead. It's currently set up like this: F/L Neck sizer/decapper – this centers the decapper better than some universal decappers and prevents some problems. Also starts the sizing process so it’s not all done in the next dies Small body sizer and GS Custom Swagger – If we’re sizing range brass I think it is important to full body size since we don't know how many times it's been shot. Good for some of my brass too. Trimmer - I probably need to turn the trim die 90 degrees and I might be able to put the lock ring on the underside. Sinclair expander with .224 insert (not “oversized” insert) – This serves two functions, 1) it makes the inside diameter of the necks the same size, regardless of the brass so neck tension is hopefully consistent 2) if there is any burr on the inside of the neck from the trimmer, hopefully it will knock it off. So far, I've processed about 2000 pieces of brass with this set up. I can process about 1000 pieces in 90 minutes. I clean the brass first, then anneal in a Giraud annealer, then lube and throw them in the Dillon casefeeder and run them through this set up. I then clean the lube off in a stainless steel pin tumbler which also cleans the primer pockets and helps with any burrs from trimming.

The reason I posted this question is that I set up a 650 toolhead to process .223 range brass in one pass. No, not loading on the same toolhead. It's currently set up like this: F/L Neck sizer/decapper – this centers the decapper better than some universal decappers and prevents some problems. Also starts the sizing process so it’s not all done in the next dies Small body sizer and GS Custom Swagger – If we’re sizing range brass I think it is important to full body size since we don't know how many times it's been shot. Good for some of my brass too. Trimmer - I probably need to turn the trim die 90 degrees and I might be able to put the lock ring on the underside. Sinclair expander with .224 insert (not “oversized” insert) – This serves two functions, 1) it makes the inside diameter of the necks the same size, regardless of the brass so neck tension is hopefully consistent 2) if there is any burr on the inside of the neck from the trimmer, hopefully it will knock it off. So far, I've processed about 2000 pieces of brass with this set up. I can process about 1000 pieces in 90 minutes. I clean the brass first, then anneal in a Giraud annealer, then lube and throw them in the Dillon casefeeder and run them through this set up. I then clean the lube off in a stainless steel pin tumbler which also cleans the primer pockets and helps with any burrs from trimming. Given this set up, I wonder if the GSI toolhead might just work. Thank you for the ideas, any others are appreciated! Thanks roxfo and tray.

Which is what I did, with duct tape. It worked but was pretty ghetto. Wondering if anyone has figured out a better way to do it. There IS a little room there for a better design than Dillons. It's almost like Dillon didn't consider that you might want to put dies next to the trimmer.

The OEM Dillon trimmer attachment takes up so much space, I can't get dies next to it... So, I've just been duct taping the vacuum hose onto the trimmer so I can get dies in the stations next to the trimmer. Any ideas/mods etc? Thanks!

I also agree that that the weights should be posted, not sure why they aren't but it's not a conspiracy or lack of confidence...and probably not intentional, just an oversight. I spoke with Greg Hamilton from Proof about this and he was surprised as well. If there was some reason for it, chances are he would have known although all it takes is for a company to have more than two employees and nobody knows everything. I'll mention it to the Marketing guys too, I'm sure they will fix it soon. Not that it is a big help, but a Proof Research 24" carbon fiber sendero is about 3 lbs.

You beat me to posting it! The thing that caught my attention the most on this thread was concern about barrel heating and sustained accuracy. After I got my Proof barrel installed (brake in was already done), I headed out to the range to get some dope on the new rig.I shot about 20 shots to get the gas tuned just right, and another 5 to get it dialed in with the 1-6 Z6i. After making all of the adjustments, I loaded up a mag with 55gr american eagle and shot 30 rounds at 5 targets at 200 yards, as fast as I could accurately hit them, then changed mags to my 69gr match ammo and shot this 5 shot group. I would be happy with that group from any gun, but considering this one has a barrel that I weighed to be 8oz lighter than my previous 18" match barrel and the barrel was heated up to match conditions, I am thrilled! Also, i was shooting outdoors off a single sand bag, the weather was about 50 degrees, light drizzle and the wind was 5-10 full value left to right. If the weather was better, I would have done a few more tests, but I was tired of being wet. That's one hell of a group considering wind drift of a 69 gr SMK at 2800 FPS MV with a 5-10 MPH crosswind is .6"-1.2" @ 100 yds. Unless I'm doing something wrong, I get .54 inches of drift in a full value 10 mph crosswind, 69 SMK @ 2800 - using the Applied Ballistics ap. MarkCO - The reason Nick tested this is that we've all seen posts from people who are reporting that carbon barrels are experiencing significant POI shifts in 5-20 rounds. That's not been my experience with ANY of my Proof barrels, and I think Nick was just trying to create a test that would simulate what he might see as a competitive 3 gun shooter. I've not heard of Proof's barrels shooting significantly different as they get into the higher round counts, other than changes due to throat erosion and rifling erosion. I've burned out a couple barrels, they were still shooting between .65-1.0 MOA with about 7" of rifling gone and serious heat checking. The last was a 6.5-284 barrel. I've been with Greg Hamilton when his .243 barrel started to go, it basically acted like every other barrel that is burning out. There were no issues with the Carbon Fiber. My current AR barrel has an untold number of rounds on it, but is easily between 5k-10k. No issues there. It shoots great, hot or cold. Brian Nelson has already put over 3k on his AR barrel, in about 3 months (Where does he get his ammo from?!) and is reporting great groups from it (see my earlier post). My guess is that you'll burn the inside of the barrel out before you ever have a problem with the carbon fiber. However, that is a good question and I'll ask Greg Hamilton and report back. Reptoid - There are more weight gains on heavier barrel profiles. ie, the least amount of weight gain would be on a lightweight barrel (such as Nick's). For those that have applications where they might want a heavier profile, there are larger gains that are possible. I don't know how much time the carbon fiber barrels are saving us, but as Chuck Anderson said earlier in this thread, if there is any gain it's worth it. We spend an extra $150 on a better BCG, $50 on a better brake, $100 on a better stock. Why not spend more on a better barrel? Also, that's half a pound on the end of the gun. That feels like a lot more than 8 oz. Is it worth it for everyone? Maybe not, but to some it definitely is. There is a tremendous amount of interest from the upper levels in 3 gun...for a reason. Guys like Daniel Horner, Travis Gibson, Brian Nelson, and Nick Atkinson could shoot any barrel they want. There is a reason they chose Proof. Thank you for your questions, and I hope I've helped somewhat. Looking forward to meeting some of you at this year's matches. If you see me, Nick, or any of the other Proof Shooting Team members - come say hello!

For those that are wondering how Proof Research's Carbon Fiber barrels shoot when hot, here is a Facebook post from Proof Shooting Team Member Nick Atkinson regarding a test he ran this week on his new 18" AR barrel: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=653487678095387&set=a.137729326337894.25183.100003024834195&type=1 "They say the proof is in the pudding. Well, in this case, the Proof is on the paper! 5 shot group at 100 yards with my Proof Research barreled Aero Precision match rifle. I also wanted to add that this is after shooting 30 rounds under 30 seconds, to simulate barrel heating in a match. Most rifles will see a slight increase in group size after heating up."

Travis and Wyatt Gibson just switched to Proof Research Carbon Fiber barrels last week and in their 1st matches with those barrels took 1st and 2nd overall at the Hard as Hell Match last weekend in Utah. Some people may not be able to afford the top gear - whatever that is. The cool thing about 3 Gun is that you can run whatever you want, and nobody is going to care. However, it's clear that there is a shift happening amongst the top shooters toward Proof Research - Daniel Horner, Brian Nelson, The Gibsons, Nick Atkinson. Chuck is right, those guys could shoot any barrel they want but they are choosing Proof Barrels for a reason. BTW, Proof also offers steel barrels now - which also shoot great. They are priced similar to other high-quality steel barrels and shoot similar. Travis posted this today: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204902451941699&set=a.1822995655289.2107276.1252163127&type=1

All barrel companies will occasionally have barrels that won't shoot great. Even Bartleins. I have a JP AR barrel that's been back and forth to them and I can't get it under 1.25 MOA. I'm sure they will replace it at this point, I just need to take the time to send it in. I can't speak for the other, or prior Carbon Fiber barrel companies, but Proof Research is not going to leave you hanging if your barrel wont shoot. Greg Hamilton (Pro Staff Shooter and Employee) tests their barrels before they go to customers. Troupe, did you have a problem with a Proot barrel and did you contact them about it? And seriously, I don't think most barrel companies are going to send most of us a free barrel to test..and if they do, you might want to use ammo that's a little higher quality than PMC to really test a barrels accuracy.

Brian Nelson, 3 Gun Nation Pro posted this today on FB: My 14.5" Proof research barrel probably has 3000+ rounds through it so far and still shoots under 1/2 MOA. I took it out to 630 yards last week with ease.

Thanks Chuck, appreciate the clarification and it's consistent with what I'm hearing from both Daniel and Brian so far as well. $950 is a big investment, but many people won't ever burn out an AR barrel, or if they do, it will take them an awfully long time. High quality barrels like JPs will run you around $400-$500. Many of the better barrels have a wait time, and Proof's might be less - not sure right now but that's worth checking. I do think we'll see the price start to come down as they sell more barrels. Again, Proof makes steel barrels too. Not sure what their steel AR barrels run but I would think they would be comparable to a JP/Noveske etc. in both price and accuracy. BTW - I have several thousand rounds through mine right now with no noticeable issues. .

Sorry, just found this near dead thread...and I'm sorry for resurrecting it, but a few recent updates to the above. D__ you need to come back to our matches, we miss you! I know you saw Greg's 16" carbon, I've been shooting an 18" carbon. I have switched to Proof's carbon barrels in both my AR's and my long range guns, and for the record, I am a member of their Pro Staff Competitive Shooting Team. 1) Top 3 gun shooters are switching to Proof's Carbon Barrels on their AR's. Daniel Horner just switched and won both the 3 Gun Nation finale and the Surefire World Championships. Brian Nelson has now switched and is on the Proof Shooting team. He is reporting very good results with his carbon barrel. We will be announcing more adds to the Proof Shooting Team in the near future, those will be some of the top shooters in the U.S. There is a growing interest from shooters on the 3 Gun Nation series. http://soldiersystems.net/2014/11/10/daniel-horner-wins-3-gun-nation-pro-series-championship-proof-research-carbon-fiber-barrel/ 2) Proof's barrels should last as long as a similar steel barrel, whether you are comparing AR barrels or bolt gun barrels. 3) I haven't noticed POI shifts in any of my barrels (AR, .260 gas gun, 6.5-284, .260 LR gun) with extended strings. I only have one barrel that has shot as well as my carbon fiber barrel and that was one of my JP barrels (the other does not). My Proof barrel will out shoot any of the other AR barrels I've owned, hot or cold, and will shoot with the Bartleins I've owned. I think the expectation is that they should shoot with similar accuracy to the higher quality barrels. If it doesn't, I would bet they would fix it. 4) The real advantage of a carbon fiber AR barrel is that it weighs what a pencil barrel would, but really acts and shoots like a much bigger barrel. This is especially handy if you like a longer barrel (like an 18"), which a lot of shooters are moving to for Outlaw style 3 gun matches or those with longer shots. The rifle length gas system is nice too. 5) I use my carbon fiber barreled AR for all kinds of matches. I shoot it in matches that involve close up shooting, fast shooting, long range shooting, you name it.... I love the light weight. It's fast in and out of transitions. The Seekins brake and JP LMOS carrier/adjustable gas block take care of any recoil. 6) Proof also makes steel barrels. They are the same barrel, minus the carbon wrap, shoot the same. Hope this helps and feel free to shoot me any questions you have. I'm not an employee, or an engineer, but I'll do my best find the answers. Chris

Sorry, just found this near dead thread...and I'm sorry for resurrecting it, but a few recent updates to the above. I have switched to Proof's carbon barrels in both my AR's and my long range guns, and for the record, I am a member of their Pro Staff Competitive Shooting Team. 1) Top 3 gun shooters are switching to Proof's Carbon Barrels on their AR's. Daniel Horner just switched and won both the 3 Gun Nation finale and the Surefire World Championships. Brian Nelson has now switched and is on the Proof Shooting team. He is reporting very good results with his carbon barrel. We will be announcing more adds to the Proof Shooting Team in the near future, those will be some of the top shooters in the U.S. There is a growing interest from shooters on the 3 Gun Nation series. 2) Proof's barrels should last as long as a similar steel barrel, whether you are comparing AR barrels or bolt gun barrels. 3) I haven't noticed POI shifts in any of my barrels (AR, .260 gas gun, 6.5-284, .260 LR gun) with extended strings. I only have one barrel that has shot as well as my carbon fiber barrel and that was one of my JP barrels (the other does not). My Proof barrel will out shoot any of the other AR barrels I've owned, hot or cold. I think the expectation is that they should shoot with similar accuracy to the higher quality barrels. If it doesn't, I would bet they would fix it. 4) The real advantage of a carbon fiber AR barrel is that it weighs what a pencil barrel would, but really acts and shoots like a much bigger barrel. This is especially handy if you like a longer barrel (like an 18"), which a lot of shooters are moving to for Outlaw style 3 gun matches or those with longer shots. The rifle length gas system is nice too. 5) I use my carbon fiber barreled AR for all kinds of matches. I shoot it in matches that involve close up shooting, fast shooting, long range shooting, you name it.... I love the light weight. It's fast in and out of transitions. The Seekins brake and JP LMOS carrier/adjustable gas block take care of any recoil. 6) Proof also makes steel barrels. They are the same barrel, minus the carbon wrap, shoot the same. Hope this helps and feel free to shoot me any questions you have. I'm not an employee, or an engineer, but I'll do my best find the answers. Chris

I shot an AKDAL this year, including at the MGM IM. It is not a FB, but is modded with just about everything it could be. Like most of the Saigas I've seen, it is finicky about which ammo it likes. I run 3 1/4 dram loads, and they work fairly well. I use FB mags, but not the newer springs. I can't seem to get a hold of FB to get the newer springs, but am hoping to before next season. I have come to believe that the steep feed ramps contribute to feed problems, especially when the ammo gets warm. Later in the year I started keeping my ammo in a cooler and that helped quite a bit, but that is not a realistic long term solution. I am going to be looking at better solutions this winter. The Akdal is very light and recoil is stiff. However, by weighing the gun down and adding a comp on the end of the barrel, it greatly improves recoil. I added about 2 1/2 lbs. When comparing the cost of variuous open shotguns, you need to consider the cost of mags and upgrades. For the AKDAL, you only have 5 and 10 rounders available. The FB 10 rounders are a work of art but $140 ea and very tough to get. There are some other 10 rounders on the verge of coming to market that should be less $, but I'm not sure how much. Maybe more important is the fact that there are no 20 rounders available. If you are competing against a guy with a Saiga and a 20 rounder, and both your gun and his gun run...it's very tough to compete. Especially on a COF with …12-18 rounds of shotgun. However, the Akdal has tremendous potential. It needs reliable 20 round mags, and some minor improvements on the 10 rounders. A better feed ramp would improve reliability. It shoots slugs just ok, would be nice to improve that. Down the road, it could use an aluminum lower, but at this point, the concerns about the plastic lower are mostly subjective. Once I added some weight, I love shooting the Akdal. The controls are great and mag changes a breeze. Mine patterns very accurately. The Saigas, including R and Rs, can all have problems. Sometimes significant. Dave Schafers Saigas run as well as any, and he modded his. Keep in mind that if you get the gas system from FB for lighter loads, it is not designed for heavy loads and more and more stage designs favor some kind of heavy load, even if it's only a couple rounds (like a shotgun spinner).