Jollymon32

That’s a DQ, 10.4.3. The issue being discussed is a round being discharged after the Are You Ready and before the Beep.

Sorry guys, definitely not a troll - just busy dealing with the Kung Flu debacle. I brought this question up because I do not believe in DQ’ing anyone if there is not a rule I can cite. There is no doubt that the shooter flipped the safety and pulled the trigger after the Are You Ready command but before the beep. Was this an AD? Was he aming at a target? Did he hit a target (no he did not)? Are all questions that obviously I asked myself, but in retrospect do not apply, because the very basis of the definition of AD is not met here. Someone quoted 8.2.3.1, but this is not a basis for a DQ, the ramifications of 8.2.3.1 is that the shooter is not started until such time that he conforms to that rule. Another poster mentions 10.5 unsafe gun handling. However that section is very detailed as to what is unsafe gun handling and none of the definitions fit this situation. Unless there are more specific rulings in the future, although this feels like a DQ, I have to agree with the posters that said that this is simply a false start. Discussions with a good friend of mine who is an RM also points in this direction, he opined: ”Everything about this was safe except he fired... it was an AD, but didn’t break any rules.. what would you do to a pistol shooter, if they heard Are You Ready then 2 seconds later drew and fired? ”

2.2.1.2 specifically states “Objects completely outside the shooting area, regardless of whether they contact the shooting box, fault lines, walls, or any other barrier, are not part of the shooting area, except as specified in 10.2.1” The wall in the OP, is completely outside of the shooting area and it contacts the outside of the fault line. Can the wall be used for support?

Added to the OP that it was a USPSA match.....

So there are three possibilities: 1) gun is defective 2) safety was not set 3) safety was set and shooter flipped it off and pulled the shot. i cannot find a rule for a DQ for any of these. Unless, we consider the carbine ‘holstered’ and thus slipping off the safety triggers 10.5.11

Yeah, it feels like a safety infraction, but there seems to be no rules to justify a DQ, just a false start.

PCC shooter at a USPSA match, comes to the line, they are issued the MAKE READY command. Shooter fiddles with the PCC, sets the safety, and assumes the start position. RO issues the ARE YOU READY command, and for some strange reason, before the BEEP, shooter fires off a round that impacts the rear berm (no 180 violation, more than 10' away). DQ, seems obvious. However, cite a rule for the DQ.

HELP! It seems to me that if a COF has forward fault lines and there is a wall whose bottom structure (not supports, think a 6' square wall 6' risers and 6' top and bottom wood pieces) touch the forward fault line that the wall is NOT part of the COF and cannot be used for support. I quote 10.2.1 "...and any object completely outside the fault lines may not be used for support, even if it touches an object that is inside the fault lines." NROI posted an article on this last week, HOWEVER, in their example (the forward wall with a port), there are no forward fault lines under this wall and as such, under the concept that the wall travels all the way up and down, then it is obvious that the wall is the forward fault line. So no doubt that it is part of the COF. However, throw in a fault line that touches the leg of the wall on the outside of the fault line...then what? The prior thought was that if it made contact with the fault lines, it was part of the COF and could be used for support. But It seems to me that this has changed.

I don’t believe a $60 price tag match is seeing a decline in attendace, it’s the $200+ one day match that is seeing the decline. It is those MD’s that are going to have to be creative to justify the cost and raise the value prop.

Crass, but spot on. And the underlying reason for this topic. The price ‘they have set’ may have moved downward. This will require MD’s to work creatively on getting the consumer to elevate their ‘set price’ point. Just relying on the argument that ‘costs are high’ to move the consumer’s price point will not be effective if the supply of cheap, 9 stage, L1 matches is plentiful. In this environment, differentiation and raising the value proposition will be required to drive attendance. Obviously, value increases when price is lowered, but there are other ways of increasing the consumer’s perception of value so as to justify a higher price. This where the MD’s need to get creative.

I followed this issue on Facebook. It was a bit comical; the build up to a solution, big to do about purchasing a CZ to test, making special dies available for sale to run oversize bullets, videos on how to customize press dies or bullet dropper (not sure what), etc. They kept saying it was a CZ issue-ignoring the fact of millions of coated bullets shot through CZ’s that do not lead up barrels- I think they are barking up the wrong tree, it may be the hardness of their lead. Regardless, the hassle of the workarounds are not worth the savings in price and the frustration of cleaning lead off a barrel.

It’s not their complaining that is notable, it’s their absence.

So, the reason for the original post was to get some input on what may be happening in the other areas of the country. I am very close to MD’s in Florida and the Carolinas and I understand the costs and the finances involved in putting on matches. I believe that evolving trends need to be understood and adapted to in order to survive. In South and Central Florida, the advent of FOR PROFIT clubs putting on 9 quality stages for $30-$35 is what I believe is killing the demand for L2 matches. These L1 matches sell out in hours (100 plus shooters) and the clubs reuse the same stages for USPSA, Two gun, and Action steel during the month with 8 stages of Steel Challenge on the remaining weekend. If indeed these “monthly L2 matches for $30” are soaking up a lot of the casual shooters, MD’s are going to have to get creative in their value prop to attract the casual shooters to the more expensive L2 matches (in price and cost).

2020 Florida open - 266 shooters $275, 11 Stages 2019 Florida Open - 332 shooters 2018 Florida Open- 438 shooters 2017 Florida Open - 385 shooters. *Data from PractiScore I don’t have the match fees for the previous years, but this being a range I frequent often, I do know the match fee has escalated rapidly every subsequent year. The ‘chatter’ that I have overheard relates to the advent of the monthly Level 1 matches sporting 8 and 9 quality stages that lower the per stage price to around $3, so that when they see matches at $25 per stage, they balk. Sure, I get it, at these larger matches there is more competition, better stages, better officiating, etc. But, I believe that a large contingent of shooters don’t care about this, they just want to shoot some stages, and I surmise that it is this large contingent of shooters that have “tuned out” due to high match fees. My perspective is limited to Florida, what have you seen in other areas of the country?

When I was called, the shooter was on the line with his PCC and under RO supervision, the MR command had been issued. It was on the issuance of the MR command that the RO noticed that there was no flag. At this point, the only remediation was to ensure that the RO verify that at the end of the COF the PCC was flagged. A fellow competitor loaned the shooter a flag.

That's all fine and dandy, but the nature of the original post was not whether it was required, but rather whether not having it was a DQ.

Gents Thanks for all the input. Here’s is what I understand: 1) Flagging a PCC is a requirement in both sports 2) In neither of the sports, the failure to flag is considered a DQ. You need to address the issue is all. I have also learned a powerful lesson for the “DQ first, ask questions later” crowd and that is to ask them “state the DQ rule that you would apply to the event (hint in USPSA it starts with ‘10.’)”. Thanks!

Gents Under SCSA rules, is not having a flag in a carbine a DQ? Can you quote the rule that makes this a DQ? I know nothing of SCSA. Thanks

If that occurs, you don’t call the range clear and repeat the command.

I’m sorry bud, I thought you were responding to the original post.

So it is not the first stage and somehow the RO on the previous stage screwed up and after they ensured the firearm was clear did not follow through to ensure that it was flagged. Do we DQ the shooter on the next stage? And if you do so, what rule do you state?

Well, he is the on deck shooter - no need to take corrective action - being that the only corrective action to take is to ensure the gun is not loaded and put in a flag. But if you were a stickler for the rules, you could take corrective action of having him put a flag in, and then issue the Make Ready command again and he takes the flag out - not sure why you would do that, given that he did not take the firearm out of the bag until the RO issued the Make Ready command (see original post, "uncased on the line, under RO supervision ).

And yet 5.2.1.4 provides for not having a flag: "A chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device must be used at all times and be visible externally whenever the firearm is not in a case or sleeve.". It even provides how to address a situation where a flag is not present and the firearm is not in a case or sleeve "Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made" What the rules do not provide for, anywhere, is a DQ for not having a chamber flag. In reality the simple answer is to provide the rule that you would quote when DQ'ing the competitor for having an unloaded PCC without a flag.

This would make SIGNIFICANT sense as the two who were saying is was a DQ are Steel Challenge competitors (and REAL GOOD competitors at that - most likely GM's).

Second stage. I know where you are going with this. And this was inquired into.