[Rules Changes]

I shoot in the US and I am a USPSA member. The rules may not affect me directly, but being that IPSC and USPSA try to stay close to each others, the rules may affect me later. In fact in either case I feel the rules can affect me. If they are adopted by the USPSA it will restrict my choice of guns, and if not it means that the two organizations drift further apart which I view as bad for many reasons outside the scope of this thread.

I dont have enough experience to know why Production is so wildly successful, but I know that myself and my friends started shooting production because of the guns we already owned. I suspect there are two ways by which shooters enter the IPSC/USPSA world, either they are raised into it by their family, or they are brought in after they already own their self defance or plinking guns. In the case of the first what gun you choose is not an issue as appropriate guns are already around. However, the new shooter who already owns guns will not go out and pick up a new one just to try a sport. Nor will he submit paper work (or e-work) to get his gun approved just so he can shoot his first match.

I fully admit that the list includes the great majority of popular guns which would fit the production concept. However, here is an example. CZ makes a gun sold in the US as a P-01. It is a compact 75B DA/SA decocker, but its model is not 75. As far as I can tell it is a perfect Production gun, in form, spirit, and function. It is not on the list. Sure it can be added. But the new shooter will not bother.

I guess what worries me is that Production should make it really easy for new shooters to jump in. I am incredibly lucky to shoot next to same really good shooters who share their knowledge freely. My concern is that a list of models as opposed to a list of features may make it harder for new shooters to jump in, both in IPSC and USPSA (if adopted in both) or create drift between the two. In either case, it is bad for me personally because at the end of whole mess it means less shooters, less gun owners, and more laws, regardless if I have to change anything about the guns I shoot.

Sorry about the long winded post, I just wanted to state my case clearly. I had no intention of starting a flame thread.

Vlad

[Rules Changes]

2. The Desert Eagle and Baby Eagle are indeed on the approved gun list under "Uzi" and there's a link which goes to the Magnum Research website

My bad for not mousing over the link. However, when the link says UZI, I think UZI, I habit I must break.

"Although the HS20Ws trigger feels like a double-action trigger, it's technically singe-action".

Thank you for correcting me. It was however my thought that single action guns were placed out of the production group because they gave some advantage to the shooter not based on how they technicaly worked, but on how they acted and felt to the shooter. I suspect if the average 1911 trigger requiered 3/4" movement and weighted about 10 pounds, the whole issue wouldnt even be addressed regardless on how they functioned.

I could actually reply to some of the other points but:

6. Having said all that, I'm disheartened that you think the approved gun list is "a horrible idea" which is "already flawed", and that the decisions we've made have been "silly" and "absurd". We "old timers" are trying our best, but I guess we'll just have to try harder.

I am trully saddened if you found my opinion offensive. It was not meant as direct critisism of any one person, or even of the system. If the majority of members are ok with it, then so be it. I was only expressing my opinion. I also don't believe I made any references to old timers or new timers.

You should however consider what I think to be the most important point of my original posting:

Most new shooters are going to be shooting in production, with the guns they already own. Why make it harder for them to jump in?

Perhaps my grasp of the english language is not perfect, being my second language and all, but to me the tone of your point 6, quoted above, also makes me feel like you do not actually want to encourge new shooters to express their opinions.

Far be it from my mind to instruct other how to shoot, I assumed that no harm would come from me expressing my opinion of the rules. Please forgive my assumption. I'll make sure to keep my mouth shut until I turn GM or so.

Vlad

[Aftermarket Mags In Production]

Well, I figured Marques should know . But the night I polled the folks about it, no one knew for sure, with the prevailing theory being that aftermarket mags would not be ok. So I figured I would get a second opinion.

Vlad

[Rules Changes]

As a newbie, I am more concerned about the equipment limitations, and I'll let the more experienced folks worry about the rest. I think that the legal guns list is a horrible idea. It is already flawed and it will only get worse as new models come out by the dozens every year, and a working group somewhere needs to meet and aprove every one. The list already has some glaring omissions, IMHO. For example, the XD is missing and so are the Magnum Research Baby Eagles. Why the XD is missing while the Glocks are not is a mistery to me, and just saying that the XD is really single action is silly. It is not single action, nor is it double action, it is something else, the same way that the Glock is not really DA or SA. I can assume that the Baby Eagle might be identical with some of the Uzi or Tanfoglio models, but just because it is only being sold in the US under that name, it gets excluded. How about the same models of listed guns being sold under various names in different countries?

Most new shooters are going to be shooting in production, with the guns they already own. Why make it harder for them to jump in?

Further more, many shooters have been picking up the Glocks 34, and 35. Note that in the USA they are being sold as "tactical" models, not competition models. Banning a firearm because it is somehow better then the rest, or more suited to the sport then others, while still being a fine defensive firearm is short sighted. It reminds me of 4x4 Audi's being banned from rally driving. To me it is absurd to ban a weapon advancement, so older guns stand up. To quote a different thread ... " It's the indian ... "

Ban features if you must, but as far as I can tell a handgun which sits in the display cases of 3 gun dealers within 30 min of my house, like the G34 and G35, is a production gun.

Vlad

[Aftermarket Mags In Production]

I've asked this of my local guys and they were not quite sure. Can you use aftermarket magazines in production? And I dont mean modified, weighted, funny basepads or whatnot. I mean plain jane mags, that looks and feel just like the factory ones. And when the factory and the aftermarket folks do not mark their mags in anyway, can anyone tell the difference?

Vlad

[Custom Parts for CZ IPSC St]

NO. You cannot manufature/assemble a new mag in the USA that holds over 10 rounds.

"You" means "you" because the factories can, for military and law enforcement sales. And further more, you also can not import mags made elsewhere outside the USA, is they were made after the magic date. Funny thing is, you can import boat loads of old 30 round AK mags with the right paperwork, but not new ones.

As I said, its really stupid.

Vlad

[Custom Parts for CZ IPSC St]

Could anyone explain for us outside US how this 10 rounds magazine law works. Apparently you are competing with full capacity STI/SVI magazine and others. What keeps from buying 16 rounds magazine for a CZ IPSC Stand?

Time. To be short and simple, when they passed that dumb law they knew they could not ask everyone to turn in their old big mags. So they only passed a law against new mags over 10. Any magazine made before the ban date can be owned, sold, used, imported, whatever (though a few states have their own more restrictive laws) but no magazines made after ban date can be larger then 10 rounds (for civilians anyway). Unfortunatly the CZ Standard IPSC was not made before the ban and neither were its mags. Thus all its 16rd mags, made after the ban, are a no-no for us here, while the SVI/STI old mags are just fine.

What happened was that right before the ban, everyone made millions of mag bodies and they are still selling them at a sane price. And it gets even funnier, because you can buy new bodies to replace "worn out" ones.

Its all a mess.

Vlad

[Cz Or 1911?]

I have been leaning towards the CZ (this week). It seems that the SA model is quite different then the rest of the 75's. It comes with ambi safety, extended mag release, a longer beavertail, and a flat single action trigger (pivot not straight pull). It seems to have all the features I would want on a 1911 anyway. A trigger job, and new sights would need to get done to either of them. The only thing harder to do to the CZ is adding a magwell, as I doubt that anyone makes it. Though I would think I could find one in Europe for the Witness or TZ and have it fitted. Also as a double stack I might be able to do something for Limited later on (though I'm not sure how far that can go).

Well I guess I'll go with the CZ, which is also $100 less. I'll get me a 1911 someday, just not that soon. That is assuming that no one build a smart gun and screws all of us in NJ.

Thank you all.

Vlad

[Cz Or 1911?]

Hi all,

I've been reading the forums for a while but being very much a newbie, I never felt the need to post.

However I need your help with a decession I have been working on. So far I have been shooting my CZ75B 9mm, stock, in Production and L10. I really like L10 more then Production, or at least for now I do. I would like to get a gun that will do major, but I also can't afford to spend a fotrune. I have been going back and forth between the CZ75 SA .40 and the Springfield Mil-Spec. The Mil-Spec I can upgrade as time goes on and I find out what I like and can afford. The CZ is closer to what I need out of the box. There are a million uogrades for the Springfield and almost none for the CZ. Both have great ergonomics. The Springfield is a 1911 and as such a classic, but I like the CZs and they are something different. The calibers both make major and I need to buy dies and such for either.

Every week I change my mind. I am not rich enough to buy both. I am not a big fan of the double stack 1911s (they don't seem to sit well in my hand) and most are out of my budget anyway, so those are out. The Glock 35 would be a choice, but then I get scared of the Glock/.40 thing and I can't afford an aftermarket barrel righ away.

What do you think? HELP!

Vlad