Whoops!
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Posts posted by Whoops!
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I will never again trade a fixed mount red dot for a slide mounted dot. Assuming both dots are quality products of course.
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I feel there's too much dot vibration in my slide mounted red dot during the firing process; however, it does offer a low sight option and a so a similar orientation to iron sights. It is also light. It also increases slide weight and so a lighter recoil spring may be required for reliable function. Considering the different aspects of a mini red dot, it will obviously be closer in feel to a limited than a frame mounted C-more or the like.
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Referencing what some people said here . . . I always like the fixed mount red dots more than the slide mounted. 100% no doubt, fixed frame mounting is a MUCH better solution in my opinion. Here's why, the micro red dots add to slide weight - deterring reliability (especially with the stock recoil spring) and adding to muzzle rise. Also, the dot vibrates less during the firing cycle with a fixed mount in my experience. Thus, it is easier to track throughout the firing cycle. Obviously, viewing area also tends to be larger with commonly fixed mounted red dots.
Getting directly back to the subject. C-More is the standard, not the gold standard. The technology is readily available to make a much better competition handgun red dot. The stupid engineers just haven't decided to do it yet.
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With my 170mm 9mm extensions, I had to bevel the corners of the follower to fit in the extensions. Otherwise, the 170mm extensions were only +4 or 5. I also had to sand out the inside of the extensions to make the transition between the mag body and extension smoother.
This was about 14 months ago... and I had an identical experience with both of my extensions. In my experience, the beveling of the follower is mandatory. Not just for capacity, but for reliability as well. If not done, it would occasionally snag at different points of its travel on the 9mm follower.
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In my honest opinion, all that matters is the slide weight, compensator, porting, load, and overall gun weight. You want the slide as light as possible to reduce reciprocating mass, porting to reduce the earliest impulse and take advantage of the highest barrel pressures, a compensator to reduce the continued push of the load after the porting, and an overall gun weight that eliminates the movement of the gun as a result of the slide moving while not over burdening your personal strength. Lastly, you want a load that makes it all balance out with your personal gun.
Hypothetically, a shorty is best as long as you have enough load options in it with your particular caliber . . . and everyone knows it's easier to transition with one (an added bonus).
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Small pistol primers are safer and better than magnum primers in my honest opinion because it won't burn as hot or as quickly, which would reduce pressure peaks and work the compensator better.
I run a Federal SPP (notoriously soft) behind 9.3 gns of HS6 under Winchester 115 gn fmjs. The primers didn't look flat until I went over 9.1 grains and there is never any signs of cratering with 9.3 gns loaded at 1.155-1.16."
I know at least two people who run 8.4 gns under 124 gns at the same OAL in 2011 platforms, although they choose to use small rifle primers. I would never recommend magnum primers.
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We are just talking barrel here so I don't know that I can find any better barrels than I am already using. STI, Schuemann. These should last 40-50k if not abused.
If you are just talking barrel damage, then there is not an issue at all in a pistol, at least as far as temperature is concerned. I've done numerous barrel failure analyses for a variety of reasons, some for manufacturers. Testing has confirmed metal temperatures that can be acheived in a pistol are under 250F. Around 400 to 500F, depending on material, is where most of the heat related issues for mechanical wear, thermally induced erosion and thermal fatigue start to occur. You can not get enough heat (from shooting) in a pistol barrel to alter the metallurgy. Creep rupture in steels is over 900F so catastrophic failure is a total non-issue.
I imagine all of the tests done to examine these temperatures have been with standard pressure loads? How much of a difference in temperature is there between a regular 115 grain 9mm at 1150 fps and my 9mm at 1600 fps? Anybody have any idea about temperatures with 9mm or .38 super major?
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I would think this phenomena relates mainly to chamber inconsistencies (length from bullet to rifling, etc.) and how the powder igniting moves differently around the bullet and through the barrel with initial detonation.
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Actually, slide to frame fit does have nothing to do with accuracy or precision if the sighting device is on the slide and the sights are realigned after each shot. Think about it.
Also, 1911 frames are a bit different from polymer frame rails.
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Thanks, I'm planning on picking some of that up now. So far, my quiksteel has done very well and I bet that would be perfect.
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Slide to frame fit is theoretically essential for a frame-mounted red dot. Other theoretical, but less essential and more debatable benefits are consistency in small-parts wear, more effective recoil control with compensated handguns (there is no up-down slide slop that cushions the effect of the compensated barrel's downforce), and improved consistency in shot follow-up.
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Ok, I have an open M&P. Obviously not the best or most used platform so I've ended up doing quite a bit on it myself. In talking to the gunsmiths in the area and having them do minor jobs, I understand that they are mostly incompetent. For example, I wanted a trigger job. I was quoted 2 to 3 lbs on my M&P Pro. The guy had the gun for 2 months longer than he estimated and gave the gun back to me with what at least feels like a stock trigger pull. I also inquired about tightening slide to frame fit and he said it couldn't be done on an M&P. Interesting . . . If I had been a gun smith I would have at least offered to find someone who could mill me an M&P slide blank that I would then fit myself, I thought. I didn't say for a certain price or anything. Needless to say, I got to thinking about how I could approach this issue myself.
I wondered if anyone had tried a steel epoxy before in an attempt to tighten up the slide to frame fit on a similar gun. All I found was a topic saying how bad of an idea it would be and that you would have to worry about the epoxy comming off and jamming up the gun.
So, I bought some Quiksteel from Wal-Mart and went to work...
First, I used it to eliminate (100%) upper to lower receiver wobble in my Sig P556 by forming it to the back of the upper receiver. I've since fired ~498 rounds through that and there has been no degradation to any of the epoxy. The fit is still perfect and a million times better than stock. My only complaint being it's harder to remove the rear pin because of how tight the upper receiver is to the lower. I usually have to use a plastic pen to help me push it out now, but can push it back in easily with my thumb. The excellent fitment is worth it in my honest opinion.
Happy with that job, I moved to my M&P. I applied the Quiksteel to the polymer frame underneath each of the slide rails where abrasion from the slide rubbing would be the least. Then, after several failed attempts at sliding the slide to mold it for a good fit, I realised that I was in too big a hurry. I built up the epoxy again and carefully slid the slide on and off one time. Wiping off the excess epoxy from the very rear of the slide, I left the frame alone for the epoxy to dry. Coming back the next day, I oiled everything and slid the slide on. Instead of the sloppy fitment I was used to on my M&P Pro, the slide was fit to the frame very well. I was able to eliminate all perceived side-to-side play and am left with only a very small amount of up-down play. The slide still moves smoothly in action.
In dealing with steel epoxy, I have found that after it is cured it will break off in large chunks (not small pieces) if exposed to too much pressure. In 150 rounds of factory ammo and about 130 rounds of 9.3 gns of HS6 under 115 grain projectiles, no large chunks have yet broken off and the slide-to-frame fit is still very good. I have also experienced no malfunctions using an 11 pound spring for the factory stuff and a 15 pound spring for the heavy duty HS6 load.
With a good slide-to-frame fit finally achieved, and cheaply so with a small enough hassle that I'd be willing to do it again if epoxy starts removing itself after, say, 500 rounds, I'm ready to find someone who will make me a frame-mounted red-dot solution. I know somebody can do it, come on people.
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If you want them put in, find a smith who will EDM them so that they don't affect accuracy. As others have said, the holes will lead to a barrel with a shorter life as they will eventually elongate, lessoning accuracy. It just depends on the comp combination and powder used as to rather or not they will make a difference, I have no experience with a Trubor.
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Not while I'm at work. Check out my topic history and one of my earlier topics has pictures of when it still had the dot on the slide.
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That's my main issue with them, too much muzzle flip even when properly springed.
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Wait now, I'm not saying it's fact, I'm just saying in my opinion they are. Some people will continue to love them I'm sure. In my limited experience, they just add too much weight to the recoiling assembly.
Silver solder... good to know
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Lol, I don't know, I just like the way open class sounds I guess. I don't tend to be bothered by little things like that. For the record, I also say C class. I just don't usually use the word division in my life unless I'm talking about math.
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I'll have to try Green. Myne is high temperature red, I think I bought it from an automotive store. The set screw on top makes a lot of sense, thanks for the idea.
That Dremel sawed right through that metal sight and screw like butter. It was satisfying.
As for issues, I haven't really had any with the platform itself other than the extractor. The extractor just caused an occasional jam.
With regards to muzzle flip, I have lately become very particular about how a gun should perform. It should settle with my grip as fast as I can pull the trigger and I can pull the trigger pretty fast.
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I agree, that being said the difference in weight between the two slides is only a little more than an ounce. Lol at open comment.
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Ok, I've been shooting an open M&P pro for a while now and I'll share some experiences here. Number one, I accept no liability if anyone tries this. Number two, with a Jager Compensator and 115 grain bullets, the muzzle rise is unacceptable until about 9.1+ grains of HS6 in 80 degree weather. I don't know what it is about the Stormlake barrel and M&P platform, but the Federal Small Pistol Primers don't start to flatten in my gun until over 9.3 grains of HS6 with brand new, nickel-plated, Starline brass. With reused cases filled with residue, I've experienced flattening as low as 8.8 grains. As you can imagine, out of a threaded 5.7" M&P pro barrel, these bullets are going fast!
In my experience, an aftermarket extractor is needed to keep this gun running at 100%. I had intermittent issues with stock, now the gun just plain runs.
The Burris Fastfire II is garbage on a 9mm major open gun. The adjustment screws broke after not many rounds and left me with a sight I couldn't zero. Then the BME mount screws totally stripped. Then I cut the sight in half with a Dremel tool and threw it away because I was sick of it.
Slide-mounted red dot sights are garbage . . . now this statement took a lot of practical experience for me to come up with, and here's why I'm throwing it out here. They make the slide too heavy. With the red dot mount, I couldn't run the gun on any standard factory pressure minor loads with an 11 pound recoil spring. Without the red dot, but with the comp still mounted, I can run the gun on every standard factory pressure minor load that I have so far tried (Remington UMC, Federal, Ultramax, Winchester, ETC.). Muzzle Rise is also diminished thanks to the lighter slide weight. Now, I realize the slide can be milled for a lighter weight. I recommend that if you want to do that, the red dot still be left off for the benefits of a lighter weight slide. I've read so many reviews where people say the red dot's weight on the slide doesn't make a difference. I'm going to go the other way and say I can't believe how much of a detriment a slide-mounted red dot sight's weight is to the operation of a open class handgun
In summation and in my experience, if your open gun can't accept a frame-mounted red dot, use iron sights. If you want to use an M&P in open, get a new extractor. HS6 is an awesome powder. Women like men who don't talk much.
Forgot to mention, I would bet a shorter threaded barrel wouldn't need as much powder in major to minimize the muzzle rise with the Jager, but the 5.7" pro uses a lot of pressure in the barrel compared to a 4.5".
Also, anyone have any idea how to solidly mount a Jager threaded comp to a 416 Stormlake Barrel for the long haul??? Even high temperature, "permanent" Loctite on every thread available isn't doing it.
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I don't really feel like putting out anymore points on the subject. Keep watching the World Shoots, steel frame guns will keep winning because they give a competitive advantage over similarly skilled shooters.
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Yeah, I meant 2011 type gun, I guess I should have said wide body steel frame gun, but I was in a hurry when I wrote it. Even then most have more steel in the frame than a 2011, but, well, you know what I mean.
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I feel as though softer is very important for side to side play as well. Thus, the follow up shot is more likely to be in the A Zone than the C for the same split time. To keep the a split from losing points, I feel as though a slightly longer time period is required for light, but similarly shaped and designed guns. For transitions, they are more dependant on muscle limitations in my honest opinion.
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Hmmm, the world shoot production class winners have all recently been winning with a steel framed, HEAVY handgun. The CZ 75 Shadow. The world shoot limited winners have all won with a heavy 2011 to my knowledge. Obviously weight can't get too extreme due to bulkiness and muscle limitations.
If weight doesn't matter, go shoot a well tuned pocket pistol with an extended barrel. The low bore axis should be right up your alley. A polymer framed full size is just a middle ground between the pocket gun and a 2011. Quit trying to justify a polymer gun because one or two guys can wina couple of areas with it.
Grams Spring and Followers - Witness Gold Custom
in Open Pistols
Posted
Hi everyone! I recently picked up a Witness Gold Custom and decided to try Grams Followers in it. I usually modify the factory follower to my liking, but figured I'd give them a shot. Well, with Grams follower my .38 supercomp 170mm magazine capacity is only increased by one. On top of that, since there are no sidewalls to the follower, the rounds have a much greater tendency to nosedive coming out of the magazine since they are not being fed from a stable base.
This is especially obvious when the magazine is filled to its limit. In my opinion, a reliable feed is much more important than an extra round of ammo. So, in this particular application, I do not recommend the product. People in the past have believed that Witness Gold Teams in .38 super have had issues with feeding hollow points. With this experience, I believe it is simply a magazine issue. I have had no failures to feed in over 750 hollowpoints with factory Tanfoglio followers and springs in stock and 170 mm mag lengths.