Whoops!
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Posts posted by Whoops!
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By transfering the energy into the projectile, the energy is also being transferred back to the platform and the shooter as opposed to being wasted into the air around the platform.
As for a smaller pistol with less muzzle flip, I recommend the CZ-P07. Weight is similar, so that is a pretty fair comparison. In reality though, for the most fair comparison, I would have to recommend a Springfield XDM 5.25 with a 3.5" barrel. Extra metal would have to be welded into the slide to support the shorter barrel, but that would even out the weight from losing the last 1.75" of barrel. That comparison would be fairest because you would still have that weight further down the handgun to help negate the muzzle flip.
Actually I should add, muzzle flip is not my contention with this. My main point is less overall recoil force generated against the shooter.
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An 8# spring is probably light enough to get it cycling fast enough. But, in my opinion that's definitely bordering on territory where you may have issues with it not being completely in battery when shooting while moving and doing stuff. As we've established with other discussions and high-speed video, the dot nearly always leaves the glass, the trick is to get the recoil cycle fast enough that you don't notice it leave the glass and it gets back on target.
In my opinion, slide speed is an issue because it's part of getting that recoil cycle fast enough, regardless of if you can see it or not.
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Major also allows the gun to recoil faster (read, dot gets back on target quicker) and in my opinion is also an advantage in that regard when loaded properly. To get the recoil to be as fast with a minor load, you'll have to go to such a light recoil spring that you'll probably often have an issue with the firearm not being completely in battery when shooting while moving and what not.
Some people may say, "I don't shoot fast enough to know as soon as the dot gets back on target anyway." But, this is failed logic in my opinion because the faster the dot is back on target the faster your brain starts interpretting it's back on target and starts wanting to pull the trigger again. You'll always have that same mental delay, but the shorter mechanical delay will allow your overall split time to drop.
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I said 9mm major was relatively unsafe when compared to 38 super making major and it is certainly not safe to factory standards. Once again, safety is relative and 9mm major does not allow for as much of a safety margin as 38 super. I'm beginning to sound like a broken record here.
I never said, it can't be fired without a kb. I said, you're more likely to have a kb with 9 major than with 38 super major loaded to the same power factor assuming a similar firearm and chamber.
Also, I would wager the limited shooters are having more safety issues because they are trying to use super fast powders to make major since they don't have ports or comps to take advantage of it. Once again, it's all relative. If limited shooters tried using very slow powders, they could of course load their .40's to a higher power level than 9x19 with less safety issues.
Let me say this again, 9x19 is relatively less safe than 38 super when loaded to the same major power factor. Once again, I never said 9 major isn't safe, period.
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I appreciate you weighing in your experiences.
I can not believe the variation is so small with approximately a 16% difference in barrel length. That being said, Titegroup and N320 are relatively fast powders and if they are being loaded to minor then I could see how there may not be enough force to fully utilize the longer barrel length.
That being said, I would very much like to see chrono of Winchester white box or Remington UMC in 4.5" and 5.25" XDMs. These are the loads I had more in mind for the aforementioned velocity difference. To emphasize, 9mm factory loads not made particularly to make minor.
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Major 9 is well past the standard design threshold with regards to engineering and as a result does not have the same safety threshold as 38 super.
I'm not an engineer so I'd appreciate you explaining this statement with factual data in a way an 8 year old could understand.
If I remember correctly, standard loading data from factories is rated at approximately 30% less pressure than what the case can withstand at the indicated max loading. 9mm major does not have that percentage of overhead built in. Many engineers use the 30% principle for many different aspects of mechanical engineering. That's what I meant when I said that. It's meant to allow for unforeseen variables in application. One must also remember, a lot of those numbers are 30% less than what an unsupported chamber allows in the case, so open guns will have an even higher overhead.
Sorry, that's the best I can do right now for a simple explanation.
Also, to verify, 9mm major does not scare me either. I think it's a good loading, and certainly better than 40 or .45 for open. But, one must never forget, it does not have the safety factor built into it like 38 super major does with a lot of its slower powders.
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:Face to Palm: That's because one sounds cooler than the other.
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Funny, I wasn't arguing with anyone, just stating the facts. It's amazing what people will try to justify simply because it's what they use because they don't want to pick up brass.
Quit arguing for compromise, it brings everyone down.
To get back to the original post, as I stated, don't compromise with 9 major. Go with 38 super rimless, the better option.
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I said it depends on loading. The lighter the bullet and the higher powder charge used, the greater the variation in velocity. More common loadings in the 115 gr range would be approximately 50 fps in my estimation, but I haven't done any chrono work with two xdms.
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I agree that rounds do not explode in some definitions, I just like to state it that way because that's how it is most commonly thought of.
The point where I would strongly disagree is in saying that a .75" difference will not make a significant difference in velocity when, depending on the loading, it can make as much of a 10% difference in velocity which may be equivalent to more than a 10% difference in perceived recoil depending on application.
Overall, I would say your analysis is spot on, except in saying that the barrel length does not make a difference in velocity. Understanding the difference in velocity also helps to allow one to understand the difference in relative recoil.
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Some things are obviously more unsafe than others. Major 9 is well past the standard design threshold with regards to engineering and as a result does not have the same safety threshold as 38 super. Anyone trying to justify 9mm major is trying to justify a compromise.
Exact measurement of the bullets and brass is one of the best measurements of quality control. A step can easily be forgotten and lead to bad consequences.
Safety is always measured in relativity. When two cases have similar pressure limits and are pushed to very different pressures, one is less safe than the other.
Lastly, setback is variably dependant on measurement with powder load. An initial oal for an out of spec brass can be lower regardless of how much the load is compressed even if setback is not an issue. I also find it very hard to believe that the compressed powder is causing your longer OAL over time, I would believe it is another issue that for some reason, seems to be the powder.
Tha main point here, 9mm major is a compromise. Anyone arguing it is as safe as 38 super or super rimless just isn't making any sense. Just because a person has not had issues with it does not mean the person is not more likely to have an issue with it than with 38 super.
P.S. I never had an issue with 9mm major. My argument is solely based on the fact that it isn't as optimal a cartridge as 38 super for open. There is just no logical way to deny this. Higher safety margins and greater load accomodation are two of the main reasons why.
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Good loading technique doesn't matter if components are unexpectedly out of spec. Also, that setback was with an N105 38 super load which is also compressed. On top of that, I used to load 9 major in both HS6 and Autocomp and even on top of 9.4 gr of HS6, setback was still possible. Just because a load is compressed doesn't mean it can't compress further.
Bottom line, it's very silly for anyone to argue that 9 major is "safe," especially with regard to 38 super which will always be safer.
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This is exactly why a longer barrel will produce more recoil, because it sends the same bullet at a higher velocity thans a shorter barrel. The leverage and weight will make a difference, but the overall forces generated are still greater because more gas is being used to push the bullet and all the gas that pushes the bullet also pushes straight back against the shooter. It depends largely on how a person and platform deals with them in regards to how the recoil is perceived, but numbers don't lie.
Once again, this is why you must tune your load to your gun instead of making some remark as if Physics don't apply to you.
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I have to disagree about 9 major being as safe as 38 super major. There are far less powder options because it is a far higher pressure round with most powders. It is also much more sensitive to OAL than 38 super. If you have a neck tension issue for some reason and it's intermittent and you don't realize it, you just might have a really bad day with 9 major that may have been avoided with 38 super depending on the powder you use.
One example being, you can make major power factor with 38 super and N105 and be below the minimum book load, hence, far less pressure than any 9mm major load.
Also, we've already established, real men shoot 38 super.
Here we go.
Like I said, you have to be on top of your QC. You can get set back in a mousefart 9mm load and blow up a gun.
Exactly, setback with a 38 super is much less likely to blow the gun thanks to the deviation in oal not affecting the pressure in much. I've run a .38 super with no neck tension at all through my gun and saw a finished OAL of 1.190 after starting at 1.25. With the vast majority of .38 super loads, that won't really cause too much of an issue. With the vast majority of 9mm loads, that OAL deviation from, for example, 1.155 to 1.1 or less will definitely cause an issue.
To the other issue, tell a women that you're a man because you can shoot a 9mm and she'll laugh at you. Lol...
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The topic is the question, I'd appreciate any info.
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I have to disagree about 9 major being as safe as 38 super major. There are far less powder options because it is a far higher pressure round with most powders. It is also much more sensitive to OAL than 38 super. If you have a neck tension issue for some reason and it's intermittent and you don't realize it, you just might have a really bad day with 9 major that may have been avoided with 38 super depending on the powder you use.
One example being, you can make major power factor with 38 super and N105 and be below the minimum book load, hence, far less pressure than any 9mm major load.
Also, we've already established, real men shoot 38 super.
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Most people don't think about it. But, given identical explosions, the more resistance one explosion is given from moving out and expanding by virtue of a longer barrel for which a bullet is being pushed down, the more opposite direction force will also be created. Some of the recoil force will also be diminished by the longer barrel's weight, but a greater overall recoil will still be produced.
The more the explosion is used to push the bullet forward, the more backwards force will also be created by that explosion. You have to tune your reloads for barrel length not just to produce enough velocity, but also to prevent too much velocity from being produced. Otherwise, you're not taking full advantage of the platform.
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It is stock, it feels just like every other XD or XDM to me. Approximately 6 or 7 pounds is my guess. It's not a very crisp letoff, but I feel that helps some shooters prevent jerking the firearm prior to shooting. I can't complain about the length of the pull, it's not quite as short as a Glock's, but it is very similar to many other polymer powerhouses.
Also, in my experience with other XD's, they lighten up nicely with use.
I tried the trigger again when I got home, and I would actually estimate more like the 5 to 6 pound range.
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Hello all, I don't think previous reviews have covered all relevant topics for me about this pistol so I will do it now.
First,the package the gun comes in is great. The holster is outstanding because it is of an adjustable design that allows you to set tension. This, in my opinion, is much more important than cant or any other junk like that. You can get use to any cant, but a hard draw will always slow you down and a button will occasionally cause an issue. The mag holder is also adjustable for tension. I wish it was a straight vertical design, but oh well.
The gun's barrel to slide fit is excellent. The slide to frame fit is not in my opinion, but I have high standards. Vertical play is minimal, but all of the models I have played with have a noticeable amount of horizontal play. This is true for all XDs, not just the 5.25. All other fitments are good. Quality of finish is good for a service pistol and the design is good, very modern. The machining of the parts was also done well overall. I wish a bit of the weight was lower in the gun, but that's one of the reasons this particular model came out anyway. There is after all, only so much one can do with an already engineered platform.
The gun is sprung well for a production gun. Using minimum power factor loads with the 5.25" barrel leads to an extremely pleasant shooting experience. If I use factory 9mm fmj loads, I find myself having to muscle the gun down excessively to put quick double taps in the a-zone at 12 yards, but it is still doable. If I use dedicated 130 power factor loads I can put as many shots as I want into the A-zone as fast as I want. How best to explain the recoil experience . . . vertical but smooth. If you know or learn how to keep the vertical muzzle rise in check, you are good to go. The gun is not violent, just persistent in its desire to put the muzzle in the air. The recoil is fairly fast for a 5.25" barrel, which is good in my book. The faster it cycles the faster the overall shooting process.
Also, the slide is easy to manipulate in comparison to other service pistols. The magazines and magazine release are not however. They both require more effort than the average service pistol, especially the magazine release. The side benefit of the release requiring so much effort is that it does actually push out the mag, assisting in ejecting it from the firearm.
Reliability is outstanding, no issues through 1000 rounds and smooth feeding and consistent extraction. I have no reason to believe any issues will arise. It is not picky with regard to ammo selection.
Accuracy is acceptable. Approximately 2 and a 1/2 inch groups at 25 yards with 125 gr lead loads and 3 inches with 100 gr frangible ammo. I am extremely grateful for the adjustable sights. They are a good setup with the flat target sights in back and the red fiber optic in front. Adjustments to the rear sight are easily accomplished with a flat tip screwdriver and the increments are very secure and positive.
As overall packages go, I highly recommend the XDM 5.25 if you know how to and are willing to reload for it. If you go with factory loads I would suggest a shorter barrel so that you don't have to keep excessive acceleration in check. The longer the barrel is, the more the bullet accelerates down it, the more backforce is created. So, this gun is great for light loads, but there are better production options in my opinion if you buy all of your ammo at a sporting goods department.
Overall, as a package, highly recommended in my opinion if ammo considerations are taken into account. It's an especially good deal right now while the Gear Up promo is in effect. Initial purchase price gets the owner a grand total of 6 magazines and 2 dual mag holders. Also, included is the aforementioned holster and a magazine loader.
As far as service pistols for production competition go, I give the XDM 5.25 a full
4 out of 5 stars.
For reference, a CZ 75 Shadow Target would get 5 out of 5.
A Glock 17 would get 3 out of 5
A Beretta 92 would get 3 out of 5
A Ruger P95 would get 2 out of 5
A Kel-Tec P11 would get 1 out of 5
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The CZ is a better pistol for production. There is no doubt. It has better muzzle control, accuracy, and single action trigger pull. There is a reason it has won the IPSC World Shoot in production for so many years running, and it's not because there haven't been enough Glocks competing against it.
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As others have said, 38 super rimless (aka supercomp) is the best choice for open right now.
Load flexibility, more room to reduce peak pressure thereby allowing less stress on brass and barrel chamber, and universal appeal of saying, "My gun shoots .38 super, it's a much more powerful 9mm." are some of the main reasons.
In response to another conversation going on here; as a spectator, I can see an open gun flip regardless of who's shooting it. They do all flip, but some flip less and quicker than others. I believe the main reason for this is powder selection, even more so than comp design. I relate seeing a guns actual muzzle flip to seeing a bullet traveling down range. If you can do one, you can probably do the other. You just have to be very picky about what you're looking for.
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Redmanfixit knows what he's talking about. The nose grease solution did an amazing job, thanks.
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The Brazos will have better resale value regardless of initial price. I like the design of Limcat Custom guns. They are designed smart. They remove a large chunk of recoiling weight from the slide and put a comp in its place with both porting and slots. In addition they use a full length recoiling system on their shorter guns. So, for the 4.5 to 5 k range I would suggest checking them out also.
Also, I love popple holes mixed with very slow powder. It sounds like god himself is striking someone down when I shoot my Tanfoglio Gold with N105.
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I enjoyed shooting with John and I'd like to buy his open gun if it should come up for sale.
Open 9mm minor?
in Open Pistols
Posted · Edited by Whoops!
I don't quite understand, it seems as though in one post you say slide speed doesn't matter and then you say it does. I agree with the ones that say it does, lol.
Also, my main question to those using a 9# spring while being unable to eject minor ammo is if a recoil master or similar sub spring system is in the setup.