Dan Burwell
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Posts posted by Dan Burwell
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Sweet! Another dark stage?
NNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOO
that depends....
the club is currently considering range improvements that would add some more pistol pits, if (IF) we get those I will likely not use the indoor range.
if we do not get the improvements then heck yeah we are having a dark stage
although, there will likely be more light this time around, it was pretty dark in there.
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Yes it is true we will be hosting the Western PA section match again in 2012, there are still some things to be worked out but it will likely be the first weekend of august again.
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the sure fire timer app is working on my Iphone 4 with iOS5
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This was never one of my written goals. However, it is a by product of the effort I have put into achiving some of my goals.
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There wasn't any paint involved, after I started this thread I went ahead and got rid of that. No, I was put into open yesterday at Nationals because, according to the RO, a fraction of my forward mag pouch was in front of my hipbone.
I have to wonder why you had it close enough to attract attention?
What is the proper distance behind the point of the hips?
Far enough so you don't have a CRO poking you looking for your hip bone!
You mean RO's place their hands on you.
With your invitation ideally......
I have a pretty good idea where the hipbones end -- so I don't need to touch you to make the call. Now on appeal, if you were to suggest, "my hipbones come farther forward, please feel" as part of the request for reconsideration, that could happen.....
No one -- to the best of my reading recollection -- is suggesting that there is random groping going on.....
There should be more random groping.
Normally, that costs more...
Yeah about the cost of airfare?
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Sonny Morton was shooting S&W M&P 9PRO.
I did two of the top 16s guns
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I think a lot of folks are thinking about how well you can move around a stage while being physically fit and miss what happens overall in a match. Major matches are often shot all day during the summer heat. Being in good physical shape may not help so much on a 70 degree day with 5 stages to shoot, but I guarantee at the end of a 10 stage match in the 90 degree heat the guy in better physical shape will be more physically and mentally ready to shoot those last couple of stages.
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Plus.... we have had a bunch of "one liners" posting recently.
Some legit, some that are likely trying to game their way into posting a classified ad. (which never ends well for them)
+1
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I had a great time shooting the Area 8 match this year. Big thanks to Dan Burwell for helping us out on Thursday. Great job by the entire crew.
GB
GB,
It was my pleasure, it got me off the chrono and I got to see a few of the stages.
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a few random notes on the match:
1. the RO package at this match was awesome...every single RO walked away with at least one gift/prize (and since most were also shooters, most got more than one). plus free hotel room, some free food and drinks, and a match admin staff that really looked out for us.
2. no rain. yeah, they got some during set-up, but no rain on any of the shooting days.
3. the crazy jack burgers were pretty darned good.
4. mike gottlieb...thanks for sponsoring a really nice RO banquet catered by famous dave's.
5. i think we finished on time or ahead of schedule every day.
6. i really liked the stages.
7. i worked on stage 5 and watched every shooter on fri/sat/sun...and every single one of them had their finger off the trigger as they moved towards the bridge after shooting the steel (including the guy the fell in the above video...falling sucks, but getting DQ'ed along with it would have been a lot worse).
8. i didn't count, but it seemed like at least 50 people helped with tear down...
9. jeff salzberg (match director), eric paradisi (sponsor coordinator), rob burkindine (stats), lew walker (stage designer/builder), george jones (range master) and harry foltz (area 8 director)...thanks to all of you guys for organizing a great match.
10. the sponsors provided an unbelievable amount of support for the match...it's a long list, but deserves another mention:
11. I finished well as a "lady" shooter!
Not only did he do well against the other ladies he did it shooting minor
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So, am I seeing things, or are we shooting a Texas star strong hand only?
yes you are....
it will be weak hand with the top half hard covered and it will be spinning.
No, no the only reason to shoot it one handed it because you want to. the middle port drops out of the way, the side ports have to be held open with the ropes.
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Dan, questions for you Sir. Will the range be open on Thursday evening, for us travelers, that we would we be able to view stages? Pre-registration on Thurs evening also?
The range will certainly be open for you viewing pleasure. I really doubt we will be able to get anyone registered thursday evening, although it won't hurt to ask if you happen to see us sitting around admiring our handy work.
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Legal to hand cock in USPSA. Procedural penalty in IPSC (Appendix D4.17).
D4.17 is about the slide...
I was under the impression that if you have a DA/SA firearm you cannot cock the hammer after the draw... that the trigger has to be pulled from factory mode (hammer down - that's why it's DA/SA)
but in the rulebook it states this...
Special conditions:
— Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal.
And that's all it says...
So I would say yes, after the start signal and the draw you can cock the hammer back.. (but it's still faster to just pull the trigger)
from the IPSC rule book D4:
17. Handguns deemed by IPSC to be single-action-only are prohibited.Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked. First shot
attempted must be double action. Competitors in this Division who, after
the issuance of the start signal and prior to attempting the first shot, cock the
hammer on a handgun which has a loaded chamber, will incur one
procedural penalty per occurrence. Note that a procedural penalty will not
be assessed in respect of courses of fire where the ready condition requires
the competitor to prepare the handgun with an empty chamber. In these
cases, the competitor may fire the first shot single action.
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So what is the long term answer? I don't know, but I do know for the short term (current rule book)if a shooter shoots at a target they do not get a FTE/FTSA. By the way this notion was supported by the majority of the current RMIs.
Can you provide evidence to support that statement? I'm not trying to pick a fight, I just haven't seen anything in this thread from anyone but Troy.
Sorry, I chose the wrong word it was consensus not majority:
OK. Sorry for the delay, but I'd like to note that I didn't sit here and urge you guys on. This thing kinda deteriorated a while back. Just the nature of this forum and the people who participate on it (and don't get me wrong, I (almost) always like it) is like herding cats.
Also, my apologies for the length of this explanation. If you don't need to know how we got there, scroll down to the bottom.
First, some information: My first inclination on this was that I'd declare a forbidden action, make the competitor reshoot, and then go from there. Simple fix, and probably the best fix for this situation. Even though I don't like the FA rule, it would eliminate a lot of argument/scoring discussion/dissension, right?
But,I thought, "If I had to penalize this action, how would I do it?" Going by rule, and I've already cited them, the two misses were a no-brainer, but I couldn't find a rule to support the FTSA penalty.
Why? Consider this: a swinger that goes behind hard cover and/or a no-shoot in it's motion, and while there, is completely covered. A competitor fires two shots at it while it's behind the wall, completely hidden (he chased it, shot it after activating it but before it started moving, whatever). Both bullets penetrate the wall to a full bullet diameter, and he doesn't shoot again. Both shots hit the target, but it's obvious that they went through hard cover first. These are obviously scored as misses, but would you assess a FTSA penalty? I'd be willing to bet that nobody here would.
So, not wanting to just jump in and stir things up (because it would be only my opinion), I took this question to the Instructor group. As you might imagine, we argued it pretty strenuously, but the final consensus was that we could not, by rule, assess the FTE/FTSA. No matter how much you want to, the rules don't support it, simply because the competitor did fire shots at the face of the target. No matter how desirable it is to say, "well, the wall is impenetrable, so he must not have fired shots at it", he did indeed fire two shots at the target, just as in my example above.
Here is a part of my email discussion with the instructors:
9.1.6
9.1.6.1
(Both deal with full bullet diameters through hard cover.)
9.5.7
10.2.7
(note here that neither one says anything about hard cover, visibility, etc. they merely mention shooting at a target)
In this example, you cannot deny that the competitor shot at the target. That's a fact. What we are arguing is the penalty for shooting through invisible hardcover, i.e., deemed hardcover as noted in the following rule:
2.2.3.3
Penalizing two miss penalties can be justified, per rule, through 2.2.3.3 , 9.1.6, and 9.1.6.1, because the rules allow us to do so. The wall goes to the ground (whether it really does or not) and it's impenetrable hard cover (whether it really is or not).
My position is that you cannot penalize the competitor for a failure to engage or failure to shoot at penalty, because he did, in fact, shoot at the target. No question, can't take the bullets back, and nowhere in either 9.5.7 or 10.2.7 is it stated that you must see a target to shoot at it. In my opinion, that's what 9.1.6 and 9.1.6.1 are there for.
I know some of you will vehemently disagree with this, and you should note that you aren't alone, nor is this an official ruling. It's a consensus decision arrived at through discussion amongst several experienced Range Master Instructors, including the Director of NROI. Bottom line score: 2 misses, no additional penalty for FTSA.
Also note that none of us would have scored this anyway, and would have gone with the FA/reshoot option.
Did I make page 16?
Troy
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Look at it this way: three targets around a corner the first two targets the shooter engages no problem, but the shooter doesn't quite get out around the corner far enough and puts two rounds through the wall trying to hit the last inside target.
FTE? his bullets had no chance to hit the target(wall in the way)? maybe he could see the target from where he was(shooting error) [snip]is this really any different than the original scenario?
I'd like to expand on this thought.
Multiple posters have said that a swinger chased into hardcover/no shoot is okay, but somewhere between that situation and shooting under/ through the wall is not okay.
For the "yes FTE" guys, how far away from having a clear shot at the target is okay?
6 inches? 1 foot? 20 feet?
Where do you draw the line?
You can't have it both ways. Both situations are either FTE/FTSA or they are not.
Lee
USPSA makes the definition for "Location" to mean "a geographical place in a course of fire" be it a box or a port in a wall or whatever. We often use it to determine if we have broken the more than 8 shots from one location stricture within the rules when designing a CoF. (1.2.1)
The ruling is simple. Is the target available from the shooting location or not? If it is, then no FTE. The competitor clearly had an opportunity to hit the target and successfully made that attempt if they indexed on the target and "shot" at it's face. If, from that shooting location, the target was unavailable to be engaged then it is unavailable and therefore will incur an FTE if that is the only place the shooter shoots at it's face. You draw the line at a well trained RO to know enough of what a shooting location is. We ask it of them in other scenarios within the rules so why not here as well?
Kevin,
I totally get what you are saying, the problem is the rule book make no mention of the target being available from a given location in regards to the FTE/FTSA to support your call.
the way it is currently the written shooter either shot at the target or they didn't.
going back to my scenario, how close to shooting around a wall do I have to be to avoid the FTE? if my rounds are within 2 inches of the corner, 4inches, 6inches, I shoot a foot into the wall, or 6ft into the wall, at what point do I get the FTE?
So maybe it's not about where the rounds impact? How about where my feet were when the shots were broken (IDPA does it with cover calls and we all know how much that is discussed as being subjective). Does one foot have to be exposed to the target or both? I can lean pretty far so...
Maybe you can only shoot at targets that you can actually see without any walls between the shooter's head and the target, but wait then I guess Taran Butler can no longer do the point a gun under a port to shoot because there was a wall between his head and the target so now he gets an FTE? (ok crappy sentence structure but you get the idea).
So what is the long term answer? I don't know, but I do know for the short term (current rule book)if a shooter shoots at a target they do not get a FTE/FTSA. By the way this notion was supported by the majority of the current RMIs.
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I hate to keep asking the same questions over an over. Maybe someone will answer this time.
For the No-FTE guys, please tell us how you would rule in the following scearios:
Wall is snow fence, but goes to the ground. Shooter can see the target, but knows he is shooting through a wall.
Wall is plywood, and goes to the ground. Shooter can't see the target, but bullet will penetrate.
Wall is steel, and goes to the ground. Shooter can't see the target, and the bullet has no chance of reaching the target.
All treated the same except the steel wall if is closer than 23 feet. Within the scope of the rules about the only thing you can do about someone shooting holes in your walls is 10.6.1.
Look at it this way: three targets around a corner the first two targets the shooter engages no problem, but the shooter doesn't quite get out around the corner far enough and puts two rounds through the wall trying to hit the last inside target.
FTE? his bullets had no chance to hit the target(wall in the way)? maybe he could see the target from where he was(shooting error) maybe he couldn't (foot placement error) Who makes the call? RO is watching the gun clip board guy is on other side not really in a position to see both feet, gun, and target.
is this really any different than the original scenario?
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Citation:
9.5.7 A competitor who fails to shoot at the face of each scoring target in a course of fire with at least one round will incur one procedural penalty per target for failure to shoot at the target, as well as appropriate penalties for misses (see Rule 10.2.7).
He did not shoot at the face of the scoring target because he can't shoot at the face of the scoring target from where he shot.
You are reading something that isn't there. There is no requirement to shoot at the face only from where it is possible to get scoring hits. It just doesn't say that anywhere in the rule book and that is the problem. Read the PE rule again and tell me where it says the target must me shot at from a location where it is possible to get scoring hits:
9.5.7 A competitor who fails to shoot at the face of each scoring target in a course of fire with at least one round will incur one procedural penalty per target for failure to shoot at the target, as well as appropriate penalties for misses (see Rule 10.2.7).I completly understand your logic the problem is it is not supported by current written rules. That is the reason the RMIs reasoned what they reasoned.
I really feel this is one of those things we all believe that the shooter did something they shouldn't and should have gotten the PE for FTSA but it just isn't supported by the current wording of the rule book.
I suppose this is how we end up with new rules.
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Have you talked to GT targets they are only 30 min from you? Another I would try is Nevco Targets they does a lot to support USPSA matches.
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There are 168 hours in a week!!! If you can't find 3 to devote to ..., you're NOT going to get results.
Adding this to my signature line
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Dan, what time do we need to be at the range by on Sunday morning? Also, is the Comfort Inn in Duncansville still discounting rooms for the match? Is there a discount code to use on their site?
Right now I am thinkin shooter meeting at 8:30 first shot 9:00, but I need to get with the RM. I will send out an email when I get that solid.
I am pretty sure either hotel you will need to call to get the discount. Neither gave me a code to use, they just said to have the caller mention the WPA section match.
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I use a TIG welder to weld a nice area up then toss it in the mill to make it perfect.
Just make sure if you played with the pre-travel that all your safties still function!!! I have seen several DIY and one gunsmith that had eliminated both the trigger safety and the FP block safety. Not only is a real bad idea but is not permitted in Production.
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The target was not shot at because the target can't be seen.
Care to quote a rule on that?
the
is because I know you can not. No where in the rule book does it say you have to be able to see (reality or rules reality) in order to "shoot at" it or engage it. It only says when the shots count for score and when they don't. This is the whole reason that this thread has gone on for so long. We all know what we'd like the book to say or what we think the book says but the reality is that it doesn't say a target must be visible in order to "shoot at" it.
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Getting excited about the match. Bringing up 2-3 guys with me from GA. Do you plan on posting the breakdown of shooters per division? Interested in how many L-10 will be there.
looks like I have 9 signed up for L-10 right now, you are on of the two Ms.
Come-on September!
I hope you mean August Yep, right now we are to the point where I cannot really do anything until I have the ranges open up to us next weekend. Kind of the calm before the storm so to speak.
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I know I am not the best computer guy, so I suppose I am a good test subject. I opened the program, I choose the competitors_sample.csv file for the one to open and the test.db (match file I created to test this out)as the import target. When I hit go I got a pop up saying import progress and a good bye button, but nothing more happened. Something amiss or am I as bad at this stuff as I thought?
running Win7Pro SP1
updated avatar
in Humor
Posted
It ought to read "looks for car"