SRT Driver
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Posts posted by SRT Driver
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Raul,
While your situation is unfortunate, I have used several different Glock triggers, including the my own, the RS kit, and a Vanek. All of these continue to work flawlessly in both 2nd and 3rd gen frames. Many other local shooters who also use the RS kit continue to find them error free.
FWIW, I have also had the opportunity to examine and shoot a Novak, CGR and a Rhea.
Yout interaction with Ralph also demonstates that he stands behind his product.
The other possiblity is that you own one of those frames that is not 100% or worn or a combo of both.
Save for one problem with the Vanek, which Charlie took care of quickly, it has run well. And that was a "fitted" trigger. So the problems are not isolated to "drop in " kits.
However, I continue to stand by my recommendation both through my own experience and knowing that, if there is a problem, Ralph will take care of it. For both 2nd and 3rd gen frames.
BTW, how are Charlie's drop in kit coming?
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Damn reloads!!
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Production division is not a "Stock" gun division. Modifications are allowed.
Production uses guns and parts that are OFM produced with the exceptions being sights, and barrels.
The external mod rule is OK as it is written..if you can see it, it's not within the rules. But regrdless of intent, internal mods are expected. The Vanek ruling is correct. The pin is visible.
If mods were against the rules, it should say "Modifications prohibited", not "External mods with exceptions".
Anyone that tells me that any stock trigger cannot stand the slightest improvement...
FWIW, changing springs is a modification.
And Production racegun!
I've got less than $1k in a G34 with a Vanek (because the RS kit was not out), some sights, grip tape, AND mags. And it runs pretty good. -
A Carbine is accurate out to 200 yards, at least. I've shot one out that far with good results.
Don't know about a Marlin in 9mm.
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Clay1,
Agreed but there is no doubt on either side of the debate in regards to the ambiguous nature of the rules, as currently written.
By definition, the Vanek mod is an external mod without question and John Amidon made the right call. Just don't ask me as an RO/CRO to enforce it. Apparently, I cannot interpret rules.
As to changing the geometry of the trigger mechanism, any time you stone/polish/file/weld on a sear and/or cruciform, you are changing the geometry of the trigger mechanism.
Allow the competitor to improve their pistols to make them more shootable, whatever that may be. If that includes drilling a hole or repositioning a pin, as long as it does not manifest itself outside of the frame/slide or disable a safety..go for it.
If adding a reasonable trigger pull weight is the answer..fine. Let's make it clear to end the bickering. A minimum pull weight for everyone. Not first shot..ALL of them.
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This might be the best thing that has happened to Production.
How about this?
- No external mods other than sights and finish.
- Grip tape allowed.
- Internal recoil system and trigger mechanism work allowed provided all factory installed
safeties function as per OFM.
- 2oz over factory specified empty weight allowed.
- Trigger pull minimum 2.5 lbs (3 - 5 - 50lb or whatever the BOD deems acceptable).
- OFM parts (ie mag releases, fire control parts inlcuding hammers/triggers) may be
installed as long as they are a regular OFM catalog item.
The trigger pull minimum is just that..no lower. This includes DA/SA, DA only, and striker fired.
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The bottom line here is that the IPSC version of the Production rules are more defined than the USPSA set.
If you want to talk about language and diction, campare the two:
19. Original parts and components offerd by the OFM as standard equipment or as an option, for the specific model.., subject to the following:
19.1 Modifications to them other than minor detailing , are prohibited.
That is clear as is the external modification clause. However, "action work to enhance reliablity etc." leaves the door wide open.
Rewrite the rules, add a trigger pull limitation, add the IPSC language "modifications to OFM parts are prohibited" and finish it. Then there is no room for debate. If a hole is redrilled or a part is modified is is not within the scope of the rules.
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Glock Girl,
Welcome to the forums!
If your trigger safety is modified, is it possible to post a picture of the mod?
Maybe, I am missing it. But mine sure look unmodified.
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Never had anything other than the tip of a striker break off.
That said, I keep the following in my bag:
striker
striker spring
spring cups
trigger spring
trigger bar
ejector housing
striker safety / spring
recoil spring / rod
mag release
stock barrel
Unless there is a catastropic failure, you can rebuild / repair anything in under 5 min with these parts.
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Conversely, there *isn't* a rule in the rulebook that says changing the geometry of the trigger assembly by drilling a new hole and changing the pivot-point is explicitly allowed.
Bruce,
The rules do not say this mod is explicitly disallowed either.
Extenal modifications are not allowed other than sights - clear.
Trigger work to enhance reliabilty ETC - not specific.
Let's be realistic about this. If the rules do not specifically state that a mod is illegal, and we all know that the "intent" and or "spirit" is not enforcable, the mod is legal until NROIO says otherwise.
Likewise, you see a way to knock 10 seconds off of your time on a particular COF, and it is not specifically stated on the walkthrough that you cannot do whatever it is, are you going to do it?
Somebody missed something and you exploit it error, is that wrong?
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A possible reason for the ruling, other than the "question" cited in the ruling may have occurred at the '05 Prod Nats.
A member of the Prod Super Squad was advised that his Vanek equipped Glock could not continue. Not due to the additional pin but because he had the pretravel set as to disable the trigger safety (5.1.4). He has short fingers and this mod made trigger manipulation easier.
He was allowed to replaced the ejector housing and continue. He changed it.
Did this put the Vanek trigger under the microscope?
5.1.4 says trigger mechanism "must function..as originally designed."
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Begging your pardon ---- but it's not over until the BOD signs off on any possible appeal. BOD now has override authority over the decisions of DNROI.....
In theory.
But what are the chances?
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I think you need to wait, though. I don't think this is (nor should it be) over.
It is over!!!!
NROI ruled on the VANEK trigger only!!!!!
These rule interpretations are very specific. As is the external modification rule.
The RS trigger changes nothing externally.
A very unfortunate decision. I can see the "logic", but give me a frickn break. It's a barely noticable pin that's expertly blended into the stock trigger. I say cut the trigger in half, install the pin assy, then seamlessly glue the triger halfs back together. Look, no external mods.Exactly!!
But the LS Aluminum trigger isn't Production legal.
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QUOTE
If the pin were moved 1/4" instread of 3/16" (which, BTW, it can't) the point would have been moot..it would have been externally invisible.
Unfortunately, that's not the case. As there'd be a hole (that Charlie would have filled), it would have been externally modified.
Edited my post. The two are exactly the same. There is no visible difference.
QUOTE(SRT Driver @ Feb 9 2006, 02:37 PM)Many well thought out responses but...
The only reason that the ruling was posted is that the mod to the pivot pin is visible..it says nothing else.
Unfortunately you can't just stop there.
300lb, you should be in Congress. It says what it says..nothing else. The reason the mod is illegal is that it is visible. It does not say it is illegal otherwise. Read it again!!
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Many well thought out responses but...
The only reason that the ruling was posted is that the mod to the pivot pin is visible..it says nothing else.
If the pin were moved 1/4" instread of 3/16" (which, BTW, it can't) the point would have been moot..it would have been externally invisible.
Edit -
FWIW - the old pivot pin hole is filled with what looks like part of the old pivot pin. The two look exactly the same. In that case it would not be an external change since it looks exactly the same.
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The RS kit does not move the trigger pivot pin or shave the trigger safety.
Therefore, by the new rules interpretation, it is within the rules.
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For the record: I shoot a Vanek in Production AND I agree with the ruling. It is an externally visible mod but...
I do not:
1. Subscribe to the ilk that "intent" is enforcable.
2. Agree that (work to enhance reliability ETC is defined. What is ETC?
Minor detailing of stock parts including polishing, no changing of geometry or modifying
stock parts I understand...ETC I do not.
3. Guide rods. It does not say they are illegal. It violates the rules if over 2 oz. are added
to the overall factory specified weight only. Guide rods enhance reliability.
And my gun has never been weighed at a match.
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Good advice.
A long position in bullet futures is a winner.
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Holy Crap!!!
The Vanek trigger is IDPA legal and not Production legal!!!!!
The sky is falling!!!
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Here's a litmus test. Put a Vanek trigger in your Glock, and then send it to the Glock factory to have a Glock armorer adjust it. Think they'd do it? My guess is they'd say "nope... that's not a production trigger, somebody modified it, we won't touch it."
Bruce,
Really... that doesn't say much for the Glock Armorers that knew something was done to mine but I had to point out what was different besides the obvious.
The rules are clear and it is an external mod but if you are not looking for it's hard to spot.
It is far from overt and blatent.
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To all the Vanek owners:
Charlie returned the original trigger bar with the gun.
I put the original trigger bar back in and it is still about 2lb. Not as light but usable.
Good enough at this point!!
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Bullet prices keep going up.
Zero cited increased metal prices for a 10% increase on Feb 1. So did Angus' site.
The bullets I used to shoot were $44k last year, now they are $60+!!!
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The RM's better stake out the safe areas before chrono!!!
I've got less than $1k in a G34 with a Vanek (because the RS kit was not out), some sights, grip tape, AND mags. And it runs pretty good.
New Left-handed Shooter
in Introduce Yourself
Posted
I'm a lefty also.
Don't worry about the ambi controls..using your trigger finger to actuate the mag release is very effective and doesn't require a grip shift.
I shoot a Glock 34. The mag release does bite at first but wears down over time.
If you choose a 1911, go with a King's Ambi thumb safety.
Good luck!