Singlestack
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From the guidelines:
Intent
This Forum is for firearm, technique, and conceptual discussions pertaining to training and competition. (And various unrelated topics.) While the occasional defensive shooting post is not prohibited, in general, defensive shooting discussions or debates are discouraged. And please, no hunting or "killing animals" (of any kind) threads.
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We really don't want this here.
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SOPA
in What I Hate
This thread was closed because the content/topic was judged not to be in line with the rules of the Hate Forum. (mostly likely politics or shooting related..which are out of bounds)
Please review what you are..ahhh...allowed to hate.
Hate Forum Rules:
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8097
[note: this is a generic reply]
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Well if somebody painted 50 yard lines on the Interstate it must have been somebody from Florida. Folks in Alabama know there is only one 50 yard line.
Unless they were thinking Canadian football.....
Again... somebody from Florida.
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Well if somebody painted 50 yard lines on the Interstate it must have been somebody from Florida. Folks in Alabama know there is only one 50 yard line.
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I like the idea and believe it could be handled. I would vote yes if it comes to it.
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LSU had trouble leaving New Orleans on Tuesday. It seems somebody painted a 50 yard line across the Interstate.
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My first PC didn't have a HD.
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Yeah Baby!! That right there, was an ass whuppin
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ROLL TIDE!!!
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This Hate rant has turned into a discussion, which is beyond the bounds of the rules for the Hate Forum. Thus, it must be closed.
Please review the Hate Forum Rules:
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8097
[note: this is a generic response]
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I must admit I have had my share of run ins with a few mods in particular but overall the majority of the moderating crew and of course Brian make this place what it is. A great place to hang out, talk a little smack, and most of all share knowledge.
"A few", or one?
Honey Badger don't care.
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DO I agree with the rule change?
Yes and no.
Should have been done at the beginning of establishing the production division.
Now its kind of late.
But to raise arguments that it "can't be done because its too difficult to measure trigger pulls" is ignorant.
TP measurement , despite what some have said , IS easily accomplished....ask your high-power shooters about it and it takes less than 3 min per weapon.
Make it an average of 3 pulls. If the pistol pulls average out less than 3# then it fails.
Don't want it to fail? Take it to your gunsmith and tell him you want it to average more than 3#.
Do I want to see you have to do that?
No....but the TP measurement difficulty argument is invalid....pick something else to argue because anyone who's been around and done it can tell you its not that hard and yes I've read the posts claiming the sky falls every time they try to measure a TP.
I'm throwing the BS flag on that. I HAVE seen TP's measure weird....had a gunsmith who donated his services at a match and he dealt with any stuff guys wanted help with and EVERY time there was an inconsistent pull it was due to a condition that should NOT have been present....like spring problems and overly dirty weapons.
Will there be disputes and unhappy campers? Absolutely will if this rule stays....but just like rule changes in any sport there will be a period of adjustment and then it will carry on.
To say I will no longer shoot production because of a TP rule IMHO is ludicrous.
I understand it will place a $ burden on people to adjust their weapons , and that some say that placing of the $ burden is totally unfair (which I somewhat agree with) but if the rule stays I'm sure they'll make a decision to either change to another aspect of this sport or change their weapon/equipment to comply with the rule.
Have you ever tried to consistantly measure a TP on a Glock or any other pistol with a trigger safety? It's quite a bit different than rifles with nice smooth triggers. To say it is easy to be consistant with these types of triggers shows ignorance.
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For the first time in 6 years, an SEC team is going to lose the National Championship game.
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how many people that are complaining about the new rule have actually weighed there guns triggers (only 2 people did on this tread so far) i would be surprised if just polishing lowered your trigger below 3lbs. those that are for sure below are custom trigger jobs sent to a shop that cost at least $150
The Vaneck trigger in my G17 breaks at 2.5.
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In the 11 years Production has been with us I have NEVER heard anyone say they wish it had a trigger pull weight limit. I shoot every weekend. I have been shooting since before Production. I shot the first Factory Gun Nationals. I was shooting a Glock 35 with a polished up trigger and when I went to the Vendors tent and felt the trigger on the XD that Rich had there I was amazed! I had to have one! To think that 11 years later we are going to add "intent" to the Division is ludicrous. Too many squads have already shot the stage.
I also never heard the the BoD was considering this new rule.
The members of the BoD might not have threads like these "go off" on them if they took the time to understand what the customers wanted instead of force feeding a major change that will cost a lot of people money.
Sorry, I'm going to have to call BS on this. Everyone keeps talking about how we are now, 11 years later, just adding intent. We're not, it's always been there, just as it always has been for all the Divisions. Heck in 2007 they even wrote it down and showed it to the members. Don't tell me there wasn't intent before 11 years. It ludicrous to try and make the argument it was never there. If you ignored it, that was your choice.
You say you've never heard anyone ask for a Production trigger pull limit. Several people on this thread, as misguided as they are
have expressed that very desire. I don't someone saying the overwhelming majority don't want one, but to say there has never been anyone saying they want/wanted one is disingenous. Also, have you asked? I don't normally have people come up to me and launch into tirades about what needs to be changed about anything. It happens on the internet, but rarely in person. I normally have to go ask. Again, like I said, it was a non-vocal minority asking for it, which is why I voted no. But there were some. BTW, I didn't know the BOD was considering this rule until about 45 minutes before it was voted into place either. It wasn't just you.
Well, we both can call BS on each other then.
I didn't choose to ignore anything. I read the rules. The rules declared polishing internals was legal so I did. Then I learned that some people were more skilled at polishing than I was...It is not disingenous for me to say I have never heard anybody complain about Production trigger pulls when I haven't. That is my experience. I have head a lot of questions/complaints about other Production rules, just not triger pull weights. I have tried to explain the Production rules to as many new shooters as anybody but that question has never been asked.
45 minutes... hmmmm
THAT'S ludicrous.
I'm not saying polishing wasn't illegal. I'm saying there was a clearly stated intent for the Division, not something that was added 11 years later as you wrote. Heck it even says trigger pulls were considered but not put in at the time.
As far as never having talked to anyone in person, I'll give you that. But I'm pretty sure you've read this thread. Where people say they are good with the pull requirement. To then say no one has ever said that? Really?
No, the intent was not clearly stated because trigger pull weight was not mentioned. Considered is way different than imposed. Polishing internals clearly implies that lighter than factory trigger pull weight is within the intent.
I said nobody ever said that to ME. Really.
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In the 11 years Production has been with us I have NEVER heard anyone say they wish it had a trigger pull weight limit. I shoot every weekend. I have been shooting since before Production. I shot the first Factory Gun Nationals. I was shooting a Glock 35 with a polished up trigger and when I went to the Vendors tent and felt the trigger on the XD that Rich had there I was amazed! I had to have one! To think that 11 years later we are going to add "intent" to the Division is ludicrous. Too many squads have already shot the stage.
I also never heard the the BoD was considering this new rule.
The members of the BoD might not have threads like these "go off" on them if they took the time to understand what the customers wanted instead of force feeding a major change that will cost a lot of people money.
Sorry, I'm going to have to call BS on this. Everyone keeps talking about how we are now, 11 years later, just adding intent. We're not, it's always been there, just as it always has been for all the Divisions. Heck in 2007 they even wrote it down and showed it to the members. Don't tell me there wasn't intent before 11 years. It ludicrous to try and make the argument it was never there. If you ignored it, that was your choice.
You say you've never heard anyone ask for a Production trigger pull limit. Several people on this thread, as misguided as they are
have expressed that very desire. I don't someone saying the overwhelming majority don't want one, but to say there has never been anyone saying they want/wanted one is disingenous. Also, have you asked? I don't normally have people come up to me and launch into tirades about what needs to be changed about anything. It happens on the internet, but rarely in person. I normally have to go ask. Again, like I said, it was a non-vocal minority asking for it, which is why I voted no. But there were some. BTW, I didn't know the BOD was considering this rule until about 45 minutes before it was voted into place either. It wasn't just you.
Well, we both can call BS on each other then.
I didn't choose to ignore anything. I read the rules. The rules declared polishing internals was legal so I did. Then I learned that some people were more skilled at polishing than I was...It is not disingenous for me to say I have never heard anybody complain about Production trigger pulls when I haven't. That is my experience. I have head a lot of questions/complaints about other Production rules, just not triger pull weights. I have tried to explain the Production rules to as many new shooters as anybody but that question has never been asked.
45 minutes... hmmmm
THAT'S ludicrous.
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I've noticed a theme running through this thread that I wanted to address. The notion that the Area Directors pulled this out of their butts without input from the members. It's just not true. I know I spend a lot of time talking to people from, not just my section, but Area and around the country as well. The Enos forum is by no means, not even close, a representative sample of USPSA. Talking to members off the internet I hear a lot of things that never seem to make it into posts. Some don't want to get flamed, some aren't computer literate. Some have better things to do than spend a retarded amount of time reading and making posts on Enos (like I do). I've had more than a couple members talk to me about their desire for a trigger pull restriction in Production. That number might even be higher if I had more of an open mind. If the other BOD members talked to people that wanted to trigger pull restrictions and voted for it, I don't see that as bad. I do see threads like this that go off on BOD members as a pretty good reason why several of them, who are members here, choose to stay out of these threads.
I understand the desire to seek member input on everything. But to do so, via online poll, Enos thread, whatever doesn't give a real picture. You get that by going out and talking to people.
In the 11 years Production has been with us I have NEVER heard anyone say they wish it had a trigger pull weight limit. I shoot every weekend. I have been shooting since before Production. I shot the first Factory Gun Nationals. I was shooting a Glock 35 with a polished up trigger and when I went to the Vendors tent and felt the trigger on the XD that Rich had there I was amazed! I had to have one! To think that 11 years later we are going to add "intent" to the Division is ludicrous. Too many squads have already shot the stage.
I also never heard the the BoD was considering this new rule.
The members of the BoD might not have threads like these "go off" on them if they took the time to understand what the customers wanted instead of force feeding a major change that will cost a lot of people money.
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Hello everyone,
I would like to express my thought process as it related to my vote (as A4 Director).
At the time of the meeting, I was rallying behind the philosophy that Production division should be that of a true stock class pistol, with a minimal amount of specialized gunwork and accessories needing to be performed or purchased to be competitive. The trigger limit discussion (and eventually motion) was spawned from Production mag pouch discussions, replacement triggers, etc. As some of you may know, I shot an M&P9 Pro for nearly 3 years that was totally stock (besides grip tape and sights). I think my vote was motivated by my rationale that if I could remain competitive with a 6-7lb trigger, most could. Plus new shooters would not be intimidated by the extra amount of trigger work needed to be competitive. In short, I voted based on my personal experience and viewpoints.
I can honestly say that I began to question my decision only days after the meeting. I came to grips with the fact that although some sort of restriction on excessive trigger work may comfort some new shooters, many of our current Production shooters would need to spend more money to even the playing field regarding their equipment. This was what I was trying to avoid in the first place.
Do I still PERSONALLY believe that Production Division should be shot with stock internals and triggers? YES
Do I think that adjusting ones trigger pull to pick up an NRA 3lb weight (which most will do) would negatively, substantially, or permanently affect anyones shooting? NO
Do I think this was a worthwhile motion? YES
Do I think we presented the motion and voted pre-maturely? PROBABLY
(Heres the important question) Do I think that raising the trigger pull would grow the division? IM NOT SURE.
Heres what I am sure of:
- Production division has been around for over 10 years, and has truly changed our sport for the better.
- It will be VERY difficult to re-structure a 10 year-old division without alienating a large group of shooters.
- It will be very difficult to ensure that triggers are weighed consistently regardless of what method could be used.
- It is in our nature to improve our gear, whether it is our guns, holsters, cars, golf carts...hell, everything.
- Members should contact their Area Directors to voice their opinions. I would ask that you please keep things polite and professional without personal feelings being interjected.
- The BOD will meet twice more in person with several special meetings during the year before this possible rule change would take effect in 2013.
Thanks to everyone for your comments.
So you believe that it is a good thing to piss off every Production shooter that has had a job done to lure some fictitious "new" shooter to the sport?
Lets do a little math. Lets say there are 3,500 active Production shooters. Lets say 3,000 of them have spent $200 on a trigger job. $600,000. Then we tell them they have to get another trigger job so they can be rules compliant. I think 1.2 million dollars is a bit more important than to have made this decision without consulting the people spending it.
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This Hate rant has turned into a discussion, which is beyond the bounds of the rules for the Hate Forum. Thus, it must be closed.
Please review the Hate Forum Rules:
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8097
[note: this is a generic response]
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The fact that you are new is obvious.
???
Apparently I'm too new and inexperienced to participate so I'll kindly bow out of the thread.
Not what I meant at all. You are more than welcome to participate.
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The Glock 21 is perfectly legal in Production with the current 10 round limit. The shooter doesn't have to shoot in Limited or Limited-10 with it.
Yeah? no kidding
My point was shooting Major in Production(where the example G21 fits more-so than in Lim/L-10) is nothing but a disadvantage to the shooter.
I thought DVC was supposed to represent a balance of speed, power, and accuracy. Why is production the only Division that doesn't recognize shooters using the higher power factor?
Unless it really is a "beginners" division....
As soon as you add Major to Production, every 9mm becomes obsolete. You sure that's what you want?
Obsolete??
So no one shoots minor in Single Stack to get the extra two rounds capacity?
I'm still pretty new to the sport and just wondering out loud, but why is okay to have the trade off in one division but not another?
The simple change would allow more production guns chambered in major calibers to compete in the division where they already belong competitively, and be scored appropriately for using the "power" part in the sports principle of "Speed Power and Accuracy"
The fact that you are new is obvious.
have expressed that very desire. I don't someone saying the overwhelming majority don't want one, but to say there has never been anyone saying they want/wanted one is disingenous. Also, have you asked? I don't normally have people come up to me and launch into tirades about what needs to be changed about anything. It happens on the internet, but rarely in person. I normally have to go ask. Again, like I said, it was a non-vocal minority asking for it, which is why I voted no. But there were some. 
Our best friends
in The Gallery
Posted
My friend only has 2 legs.