BDH
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Posts posted by BDH
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Oh yeah - you're shooting, with me <VBEG>
Fine with me, but more likely you are shooting on MY squad!
I have committments from four newbies to come out and shoot on Sunday with me. They've been intimidated, and I told them that this would be a perfect opportunity since I won't have my hands full with doing anything other than shooting. I could probably use hand with them...
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I don't see how we can balance the opposing philosophies indicated here. If we accept the responsibility to act as a CRO on a stage, where part of our charter is to fairly officiate the match for all competitors, it seems in direct opposition to not challenge a bad call, just because a shooter got a little help from it. A bad call is just that - bad. And while it may feel good to think we've helped this one little ol' shooter, it hurts all of the other shooters competing against him in that match.
Great post!
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First round is on me at the Ohio Sectional!!! (BTW...thats YOUR first round...gotta be careful with all these RO's lurking
).You're lucky that I won't be there!
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On delegates, I've never had the stage briefing actually say they were going to score while the competitor was shooting.
(BDH, were they really close to running behind schedule...or were you just waiting a bit because your stage was able to turn them a bit quicker?)
First, it absolutely should be in the walkthru (and was at A6)...
Second, it was a combination. Once I got my stage up and running, we could easily clear our squads on time, and have time to take a break. However, S16 was absolutely running behind. Very experienced crew so that wasn't the issue. Just a tough stage with lots of things that could get screwed up. I was giving some grief (just in fun) to David Hyden (CRO) about how slow they were, and when he told me how hard they were struggling to try and stay on time, the number of reshoots, etc., I knew it was going to be a problem. In fact, at least one of the days they worked straight thru lunch trying to catch up....
I was pasting targets and the ARO called the hits wrong on two different shooters. I brought this to the ROs attention before pasting the target. After the second time I did this the RO threatened to DQ me for USC.Tim, that 'really' sucks. I've made my share of errors, and usually say 'Thank You' to a competitor that points out an error.
Also, I can understand why you may have been hesitant to push the issue at the match, but I 'think' that after the match, I would have reported this one either to the RM, the MD, or to John Amidon, so some coaching could be provided... and it really doesn't save any time by pasting them early.As Wakal already pointed out, it absolutely DOES save time on the right stage. My stage at A6 was 32 rounds, but more importantly, it was in their shoot house (four or five 'rooms' with walls made of black visqueen). We finished at the far end of the house, and by the time I had called Range Is Clear, we usually had everything on the front of the stage, and everything inside the house already scored, which just left us with the back targets to score. I'm not sure exactly how much time we saved per shooter, but we did save time significant amounts of time (and I still could not keep the stage on schedule with all the props we had to reset, and the fact that making absolutely sure the stage was clear took extra time because of the rooms). Also, remember I started my other post by saying that I do NOT like scoring like this. I really do try to avoid it at all costs, but sometimes, you just gotta do what you gotta do....
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Got back from Nationals last night and in addition to digging out at work, I was not really looking forward to spending Saturday and Sunday on the range for our club match.
Saturday afternoon is our normal match setup, Sunday morning is the match, and Sunday afternoon is tear-down. I'm normally there for all of it, plus RO a squad, and do the stats.In catching up on email last night, there was a note from our MD that Bill Seevers and crew were running the match this weekend. Stage design, setup, teardown, ROing the squads, etc. WOW, that is totally awesome, and greatly appreciated. I can actually show up and just shoot!
I am really looking forward to this, and heck, I think I might even do some dryfire practice this week to try to get ready for it...Thanks Bill. Very much appreciated (and if you designed the stages, I am sure it will be a good one as well)...
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Personally, I do not like to score targets without the shooter present, but sometimes it is tough to avoid. I used this method at A6 this year, because with all the movers, etc. it was tough to keep the stage running on time.
If they were doing this on S14 and S16 at Nationals, I would assume they were doing it for the same reason. Not sure what was happening on S14, but since S16 was right before me I was usually waiting for squads and well aware of all the prop problems/reshoots they were having next door.Again, not my preference to score like this, but also, no one (shooter or staff) really likes to run behind either. Kind of a necessary evil I'm afraid...
Brian Hanna - CRO S17
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Just a quick note to congratulate my good friend Paul Hernandez on becoming the newest NROI RM. Congrats Paul (and I hope to join you one day)...
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I fly ALL the time, but normally not with a firearm (although I do carry other dangerous items like toothpaste and deodorant
). Anyway, I'm flying to Aera 4 and have been catching so much grief about not shooting enough that I was comtemplating flying my gun down.Not so sure now. This totally sucks...
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I understand now that this is not a rules violation, but a Written Stage Description/Briefing, and therefore only enforcible by the stage designer or Range Master of that match.
Chris, personally, I think ALL of us wish that 'every possible situation' was defined by a rule, but who could carry all the rulebooks!
More importantly, and what I can assure you of is that EVERY competitor started in the same position... -
All of the hard working match staff! and RO's that were an all-star nationals working crew too!!!!
Just a tune up for Barry in a couple of weeks!
Seemed like almost everyone had a good time. Everything ran pretty darn well, and was constantly ahead of schedule. Just seems like a LONG way away (of course I was reminded that it is the same distance for the WI guys to shoot A5 down here, so I got it.... just that getting home at 2:00 AM Monday morning and heading to work next morning was a challenge
)..... One other thing... I can't believe that you shook up prh's beer like you did...
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Everyone have fun! Deb and I will be in Tulsa getting ready for the Open Nats...
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They really underrate his accomplishment
My thoughts exactly, but still positive press. BJ embodies every aspect of the sport... professionalism, committment, great attitude (and also all that speed, accuracy, and power stuff
)....A pleasure to be around and certainly a strong spokesman for all of us....
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Let's see... how to answer this question...
Well, I help the local club as much as possible thru Saturday set-up... Sunday RO'ing a squad... and handling all the stats for the club. I miss a few matches a year though, as I am off working either Area, or Nationals matches.
I wish I had more time to help with stage design, but probably not to be. I also wish I was shooting more (everyone was killing me telling me how much fun they had shooting my stage at the MG Nats. While I was glad everyone enjoyed it, I was dying to let the shotgun rip, followed by those close rifle targets)...
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1.1.5 Shoot 'em as you see 'em...
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Always hard to call unless witnessing the actual event, but based on the post, my call would be Match DQ based on the following rules...
10.5.10 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during movement in accordance with Section 8.5.
8.5.1 Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets, all movement must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard and safety should be engaged. The firearm must be pointed in a safe direction. "Movement" is defined as any of the actions below:
8.5.1.1 Taking more than one step in any direction
8.5.1.2 Changing shooting stance (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc).
Since the competitor was not 'actually aiming or shooting at targets' when the gun discharged, the only conclusion I could draw was that he/she had their finger on the trigger 'while changing shooting stances' (and if there were questions, that's what the ARB committee is for)...
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Heh heh... after all this time seeing you post, Brian, I never realized it was Brian Hanna... heh heh... oh well...
Dave, are you telling me that MY COVER has been blown??? Now what am I supposed to do??? Will I end up on the Nightly News??? Will there be a big political investigation? Do I need to head overseas and use my IROA card for identification..
All, kind of looking for those 'local knowledge' kind of things that just don't make it into the travel or Chamber of Commerce brochures (Jim Davis Gun Museum is a great suggestion). Best 'local' this, or best 'local' that...
Carina, great to see you at A6, and I guess I'll miss you at A4. Hope you are back to 110% and see you at one (or more of the Nationals)....
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You are only about an hour (maybe a bit more) from Newport OR and the beach so that is a good way to kill a day. They have a great aquarium there. You can explore up and down the coast.
You must be working as staff. I am driving in Monday.
Thanks for the tip, as 'Deb' loves stuff like aquariums!
As for the 'must be working as staff' comment, yes, you have that absolutely correct... And until my personal coach (Shooter GRRL) coaches me up to GM level, I will still be a 'stage slave' and loving EVERY minute of it (well, MOST of the minutes... or maybe SOME of the minutes... at least all but the rough minutes.... umm, sorry if I am confused, I do love work matches, right?)
Okay, I'm back now. YES, I will be working (as will Deb), and WE WILL BOTH BE LOVING IT!
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We knew going in that he wouldn't be running his own squad any time soon.
First, congrats and thank you for getting him involved early in the shooting sports, and especially in USPSA!
Second, feel free to have him apply to any of the Area or National matches (that I work), and state on the staff application that 'I requested him'. I have taken several 'young RO's' under my wing (although most were young to USPSA, not necessarily in age), and I haven't heard any complaints. In fact, one of my BIGGEST joys is having a 'new RO' at either a club, Sectional, Area, or National match tell me that 'they cannot run shooters' (or especially, the Super Squad at big matches). At least so far, I have successfully taken every one of them through their first big match, and by the end of the match, I am usually FIGHTING THEM for the timer with them telling me.... 'I WANT TO RUN THIS SQUAD'!!
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Since Deb and I need to be in Albany no later than Monday night, we decided to go in on the Friday before and spend the weekend exploring before we go to work on Tuesday morning (flying into Portland). Never been to Albany before (but love the Bend area) so anxious to see what it has to offer and would love to have some 'local' suggestions (and of course for some d*amn reason she wants to go raft a river
).All suggestions considered, but remember, while I might give a thumbs up, Deb 'could' send her 'killer wabbits' after you...
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Since Deb and I need to be in Tulsa no later than Monday night, we decided to go in on the Friday before and spend the weekend exploring before we go to work on Tuesday morning. Never been to Tulsa before so anxious to see what it has to offer and would love to have some 'local' suggestions (best steak for one... things to see, etc).
All suggestions considered, but remember, while I might give a thumbs up, Deb 'could' send her 'killer wabbits' after you...
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I may even be able to teach ya a thang or two, about shooting
SWEEEEET!!!!! Personal coaching from the one, the only Shooter GRRL!
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I WILL be carrying Shooter GRRL's range bag at the next MRPC match, and BTW, I will also be shooting....
Any volunteers to squad with me at the Ohio Sectional? Maybe some of my good buddies around here can frisk me before the stage to insure that no timer is present?
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Relax everybody! Chill out. Just relaying an actual example of what can happen by giving LAMR when they are facing the wrong direction (even though 8.3.1 tells them they need to be facing downrange)... OR telling them FACE DOWN RANGE... OR telling them TURN AROUND. All three led to problems here!
Also, not saying there should be no pre-stage banter. However, I get the shooter name and stuff out of the way before they get to the box, but once they step in that box, it's generally range commands only...
I'll shut up now. Been a long day and headed to Cleveland for a couple of days.
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Okay, thanks for the comments, so here we go and see if it impacts your answer. BTW, this is a real world example from a Nationals a few years ago...
Start position: Standing, facing uprange, gun loaded and holstered, hands naturally at sides.
Stage Procedure: On signal, turn, then draw and engage targets from within shooting area.
First example - Competitor enters box, and stands facing uprange waiting for range commands. Range Officier gives the stage one more quick check. Looks at competitor who is still facing uprange, and issues "LAMR" assuming the competitor will turn downrange before unholstering. Instead the competitor goes for his gun and almost draws directly on his squad (several of whom were going for cover). Fortunately, a quick "STOP" before the gun cleared the holster avoided a big problem.
After running the competitor, CRO takes the stage RO's aside and says: "Guys, while I never thought I would see that, let's not assume they know they need to face downrange before pulling their firearm. If necessary, tell them "Face Down Range" to get them oriented in the correct direction."
Second example - Competitor enters box, and stands facing uprange waiting for range commands. After looking at each other for a few seconds, the Range Officer says "Face Down Range", and since he now had the competitor where he wanted him, his focus shifted to his one last look at the range before issuing "LAMR". Unfortunately, the competitor turned around, pulled his gun and went for a mag before the Range Officer got him stopped. At this point we have a big problem under 10.5.1. The competitor argued "Why did you break the range commands in half?". The RO stated, "I did not issue you any range commands. I asked you to face down range so you would be ready for LAMR after my final check of the stage". The competitor argued "Yes you did. The command is 'Face Down Range, Load and Make Ready'. Of course, a trip to the rulebook showed that there is no FDRLAMR, only LAMR (FYI, one possible solution is if you see the competitor going for their firearm, immediately issue LAMR to save the DQ, but you can ONLY do this is you are 110% sure the stage is CLEAR).
After sorting out this mess, the RM, CRO, and stage RO's had a 'little conference' downrange. The RM was not happy that the RO had told the competitor to 'Face Down Range' as often competitors are used to hearing 'Face Down Range, Load and Make Ready' at their local matches. CRO and stage RO's explained the first situation, and said they certainly did not want to see it repeated, so if they could not say Face Down Range, how where they to get the competitor turned around? Everyone agreed to avoid the 'potential' problem by instead saying "Turn Around".
Third example - Competitor enters box, and stands facing uprange waiting for range commands. After looking at each other for a few seconds, the Range Officer says "Turn Around". Competitor immediately spins around and draws his firearm (this one certainly was not expected as this was an M class competitor), so here we go again...
I'll admit, this was kind of a tricky question, and I think I knew all possible scenarios since I was there living it (the old-timers on the board might recognize this). While I won't argue that you can talk to the competitor about stuff, once they step in the box, you'll generally hear nothing from me other than the 'approved' range commands under 8.3 (although, occassionally I have been caught yelling "WHOA" instead of "STOP"). Another reason for this is at the high level matches, we do see International competitors that ONLY understand the approved range commands, so the first word out of your mouth is 'assumed' to be LAMR.
FWIW, Flex probably nailed this best and I suppose standing in front of the competitor to make sure they are facing the correct decision is a pretty good solution. Just something about standing between the competitor and the downrange berm and preparing to issue LAMR, makes me a little uneasy (I know, I know, it is an 'unloaded gun', so what's to worry about? Well, there was this other time where a competitor was issued LAMR, racked his slide, and a LIVE ROUND EJECTED... but that is another story).
).
Saturday afternoon is our normal match setup, Sunday morning is the match, and Sunday afternoon is tear-down. I'm normally there for all of it, plus RO a squad, and do the stats.
I am really looking forward to this, and heck, I think I might even do some dryfire practice this week to try to get ready for it...
More importantly, and what I can assure you of is that EVERY competitor started in the same position... 
Scoring And Pasting Ahead Of The Shooter...
in USPSA/IPSC Rules
Posted
Fireant,
First, I'm sorry you did not have a good experience at A6.
Second, I sort of disagree with your 'checks and balances' anology. I'm not 100% sure how other CRO's handle this, but when I have the clipboard in my hands, I focus on getting the correct scores recorded on the scoresheet. Very rarely do I look at the targets when I have the clipboard. I've found that looking at targets, and writing down scores is a quick way to screw up a scoresheet. I trust the RO calling the shots and the shooter looking over their shoulder to give me the correct score. At that moment, my job is to repeat the score I hear (to make sure I heard the call correctly), and to record it in the correct scoring box.
My goal is for everyone coming through my stages to have a positive experience, and to get a fair score. Sorry I let you down (but I'll try to do better next year!).....
CRO A6 S9