Boats
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Posts posted by Boats
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Hate to admit it but found some high primers. Not very high and nothing that would have given me cause for concern in any other gun. Looking with a magnifier found a few that looked a bit high. Put the edge of a rule on the base and felt it rock some on the primer rather than sit flat. Used this test on all 250 remaining of that lot of 500 and at least a dozen were high. Running them back through the Lee Auto prime tool felt just a bit of take up re-seating.
Also got a new striker from Smith. It's different for sure. Shiny and smooth pin and the spring seems to be different gauge too. No way to tell for sure without taking it apart.
I am not going to seat deeper with this lot. Am running max manual load of Clays and deeper will increase pressure. Plus they are at most manuals max OAL. Although manuals are all over the place with 9mm OAL figures. Main reason is I need to isolate the variables if I am going to figure out whats going wrong. Figure 100 rounds fully flush primers and if no FTF then put the new striker in the gun. Rest run OK will take up the OAL advice next lot. I see no reason to run it at max OAL and a bit shorter is good insurance.
Thanks all will update after, if they function OK will post some crono figures too.
Boats
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1.139 longer than you guys. Not a lot but longer. I am going to run them all through the press see what happens. As I go will double check the primer seating.
Boats
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Jason
I don't know the PF. I plan to crono it if the pistol will run. If it won't no sense in going to the trouble. Have to do it outdoors and the weather has been terrible. Club I am shooting matches is indoors. My old load was 5.3 of W 231 and safely over the PF. However have been converting all match loads to Clays. This from last years Revolver experience using Clays, it's clean and consistent. Have tested the gun with Clays between 3.7 & 3.9 and no fail to function using the 3.7 charge. Difference of course between fail to function and fail to fire. It may take 3.9 to make PF Considering it's a 5 inch barrel I expect PF will not be too hard to get with Clays.
I am going to re-visit the OAL. and put the inch dial caliper on some of my loaded rounds compare to what you guys load. Have about 250 of that lot left. Would not be much trouble to run them back through the press and shorten a bit before next match. Will also double check primer seating make sure all are just below flush. Only thing is my buddy's 9 Pro use the same loads loaded same time same press components and all. No problems with his gun.
Boats
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Thanks
Striker channel is clean. I have seen other striker pistols choke that way at matches,guys that never clean them or over lube with gunk sticking in the lube. I tried it both clean and dry & clean and lubed no difference. Now it's clean and dry. On the OAL. When I first got the gun I ran it with reloads, same specs I had used with my old High Power. Then went to WWbox trying to isolate the problem, and now with Zero Jacketed bullets and my reloads. OAL is the same as the WWB using the zero's bullets shape is the same. I can only tell you how long in metric. It's a quirk of mine to measure metric cartridges with a metric dial caliper. .300 max but have run .295 too They drop in the chamber easy and from painting the bullets nose with a black marker see they don't jamb the leade. In fact don't touch it. Load is the 124 gr Zero with 3.7 Clays and the Winchester primers.
I am guessing it's something to do with headspace not the striker or loads at all. If it was a bolt gun that's what I would suspect. Honestly I don't know much about Striker pistols. This one lets the slide move forward more on striker drop than he M&P C or my Friends M&P pro. it's obvious to my eye and the other two are hardly perceptable. I guess I could put a dial indicator on all 3 and measure it. Still can't get my head around why the slide would not just stay in battery until the cartridge fires but that's the way they work. It it pulls away too far before the firing pin has had a chance to do it's job that would cause missfires.
Boats
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There are a lot of 6 shot 686's our there. I had set 500 as the price I was going to pay and ended up with one for 400 bucks. 400 is what a shop was going to allow one of our club members as trade in. That's a whole lot cheaper than switching parts.
Boats
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Reading about the new striker design for M&P's I called S&W They are going to send me one to try, but in talking it over with the service rep he does not think the new spring and striker is going to solve my light strike problems. He said the re-design is for dry fire broken pin problems. He suspects something is out of spec on my pistol. Wants me to send the gun back, would be the 2nd trip back.
Friend of mine and I bought a 9 L & 9 Pro late in 08, I had also bought the 9C earlier. The Pro and 9C have never had a single light strike problem. My 9L gets a light strike missfire from time to time. I retired the gun last year after it choked on me one too many times in matches and shot revolver most of 09. 2010 I am using it again. Loaded 500 rounds with Winchester primers, hard primers I know but there is little choice when it comes to primers & a service pistol unaltered ought to shoot them. From recorded missfires I have 4 with 250 rounds through the gun every single one in a match. This using the factory recoil spring, I had blamed the problems on my switching to a non captured guide rod and 13 lb spring early in 09. I also double checked evey round when loading for improperly seated primers. That failuer rate is just under 2 % Not the best way to try to bump my classification.
Had hoped to shoot SSP 2010 but if it won't run no sense in even trying. Send it back to Smith sets me back several matches waiting with questions in my mind as I shoot even after it comes back. I might just buy a regular M&P 9 and give up on this one. I like the platform a lot and others at our club run fine. Plus into it deep with mags holsters etc. Anybody have any advice let me know.
Boats
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I use the standard Houges, Advantage is they are cheap and run the same grip on 2 625's 686 and my carry M 19 2 1/2 inch. You get used to one grip it's good to stay with it. They seem to absorb recoil pretty good too. Have a couple of retro Smiths and use the standard grip with a Tyler T grip. Look good but they transfer recoil to you hand much more.
Boats
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Can you get one from Smith without sending the gun back ?
Boats
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Easy way is to add one of Brownells stick on Sorbathane cheek pieces. I use them on 700's and my 870.
Boats
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Personaly I like a regular 870 with vent rib cut down to about 22 inches over a rifle sighted short gun. I had mine re-cut for choke tubes, tight pattern is better for some steel & distance targets.
Besides the mag tube extension you might want to smooth around the bottom of the reciever. Reload a lot and guns will wear your fingers out from the sharp edges. Sling is worth having too to carry from stage to stage, get something that clips on and off easy. I don't like a bunch of stuff hanging off my gun so carry all reloads on a belt in Cal Comp holders. Open bolt indicator is required in our clubs matches. We run seperate Auto Pump and Unlimited classes. Best of the pumps are right up there with the Autos. Head to Head the Pumps are slower but not a lot. You can't catch the unlimiteds, they reload so fast.
Boats
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I argured against lost brass policy at our club and was voted down, It does slow down the squads, not a lot but we run so many guys through a minute each squad is a lot end of the day. Does not take long with a revolver but open it up and guys will scronge for 9mm cases all over the place. Can be a saftey issue if someone is bent over behind some target when the range is checked to go hot. Guys that tear down end of the match get to recover the brass for themselves helps the work load a lot. Major matches around here, Blackwater and Carolina cup are all lost brass.
Are you tied to the M 19 ? I think they are great but a shooter with potential will probably do better long run with a 686. Heavier and able to take PF loads better. PF is the thing that holds K Frames back in IDPA, my opinion anyway. You can sell most 19's for as much as it cost to buy a good 686
Boats
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Clays cured the sticky cylinder problem for me. Unique is very dirty powder. The gun makes long runs with no cleaning. Hundreds of rounds still drop easy. Hodgen does not publish any + P data for Clays and cast bullets. I run mine in a 686 over published data very slightly with no signs of pressure or problems. Only gun I have ever done that with. It is a strong 357 and the over manual loads are very mild, I think they are issuing very conservative data. Had to go a few tenths over to make IDPA PF most of the guys I shoot with do the same. I don't shoot the same loads in my M 19 2 1/2 inch mostly use it for non PF matches like BUG or our clubs revolver only matches not under IDPA rules. With it I back off on the Clays to max published data. No sense in pushing a nice old 19. In the 686 It's not a big difference max vs just over max except when you look at the chronograph. Case and primer no visible or measurable difference at all
Don't know about your matches but most of the ones around here are lost brass so it's to expensive to use matched or special brass. Actually I don't think it's important anyway. My moonclipped 45 acp 625's I do use matched brass, it's easy to do with clipped ammo no reason not to sort them out.
Clean burning powder round nose bullets and chamfered cylinders they drop in fine.
Boats
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I go two ways on cast bullets
Rifle Competition I shoot two Schuetzens, They need the absolute best plain base cast bullet to perform The 25 ring center at 200 yards is only 1 1/2 inches. I buy pre mixed 1/25 pure lead and tin and cast with much care and attention. The 32/40 200 gr gets 36 bullets to the pound and the 38/55 300 gr gets 24. With pre mix costing between 1.25 and 2.00 per pound I am paying 6 cents roughly per bullet, and taking a whole lot of time. You cannot buy a good Schuetzen bullet from a mold cut to suit your particular rifle. No way around casting them your self. Total round count those two rifles is about 2000 per year almost all match shooting. Bullet cost is inconsequential, time spent is a real pain
Pistol Competition my round count is much higher and mechanical accuracy requirement less. 230 gr 45 acp LRN last box from a local caster with a good product cost 60 dollars for 500 158 gr 38's 40 dollars per 500. Average it out and it's 10 cents or so per bullet. With lead prices down he is lowering his prices next batch. For me as long as the pre-cast bullets perform no reason to cast them myself. I might be able to save 200 bucks at best casting.
If I saw the right 230 gr RN .45 acp or 38 158 RN mold for sale would probably buy it just to insure a supply of bullets, other than that my take is casting for pistols is not cost effective
Boats
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Doug you make a good point. I travel to matches and no doubt Ammo is the cheapest part of the equation.
Our indoor range with lights off the fans go off. I have had smoke problems using my 625's with 18 rounds same spot indoors flashlight. Outdoors never had a problem. Even indoors with high round count if you know it's going to smoke it's possable to compensate by moving just a bit to the side. Thats IDPA were it's less likely to have to shoot from a box.
My take is it's best to use in pratice what you use in matches. Loading jacketed bullets for revolvers is different, crimp OAL loads etc. If somebody has the jacketed loads worked out well thats fine but often times I have seen guys go wrong switching to something different on match day. Best thing to shoot is what works good for you tried and proven.
Boat
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Here is an old guys opinion
Bullet weight size and velocity we are using in revolvers for match shooting has not changed for nearly 150 years. 35 or 45 caliber cartridges. well under 900 fps Lead has always worked just fine . Only real reason to change to jacketed bullets is to spend more money. The often reported problems with lead are mostly from poor bullet fit, alloy too hard or barrels with residual copper from shooting jacketed bullets. Smoke ? it's a gun it's supposed to smoke, rarely causes a problem on target.
Autos particularly the smaller bore's at higher velocity like 9mm it's another thing. Jacketed bullets work better. You can get good target performance with the .45 ACP in 1911's and lead bullets with just a little care in loading. I figure the 45 loaded for Automatics is a toss up lead vs jacketed bullets. Revolvers you don't need jacketed bullets.
Boats
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I have seen some Factory Ti Cylinders having sticky load problems at our club matches. Night guards in 45 acp. Only one I have personal experience with is a 342 and it does not seem to be any stickier than other J Frames, it never shoots long strings though.
I suspect easy loading moonclips after many rounds is something special and needs all the help it can get from clean loads and slick cylinders. If there was not a real compelling reason to go Ti might be best avoided
Boats
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I am cross eye dominant and shoot iron sight pistols right handed left eye with scotch tape on the right glasses lens. Target rifles scoped I use a left eye blinder nothing on my glasses. Mostly just a collar with a flap slipped over the scopes eyepiece. Iron sight target rifles with peeps same thing except stuck on the side of the sight with a magnet.
Shot guns or hunting have to use Scotch tape on the left eyeglass lens. Not as much as in a match and run it a bit higher so it's easy to use both eyes under the tape when not taking a sight picture.
It's a real PITA getting old, I always had better than average eyesight and lots of my shooting was dependent on it. Now with pistols have to pay real attention to the fundamentals of grip and trigger control. If I knew then what I know now.
Boats
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My mags are all numbered and the only one I load to + 1 is number one, This also gives me a high round count mag, gets way more use than all the others. Not sure if thats good or bad but it has yet to fail.
Boats
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Weight knocks steel down. Velocity can do it but to increase knockdown weight has the most effect. In a 9mm I would go for 147's and a load that shoots well in your gun. You have to hit them first.
Boats
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Corey
I don't put too much emphasis on a particular OAL. It's what works in the particular gun. One 1911 I use 1.275 other they have to be shorter 1.255 both Colts and Colt Barrels one chamber must be shorter than the others For the Autos with the SWC's I like a bit of lead exposed above the case neck, helps the ride up the feed ramp.
The Revolvers I don't even know as I seat those bullets to suit the crimp grove in the bullet. It's different on the 200 grs and 230 gr bullets. Since you are using Plated how you crimp is going be important. No grove to crimp in. Taper crimp like for Autos that's not a problem but roll a hard crimp in the plated for Revolvers it can deform the bullet.
Probably you should experiment some to see what works in your gun, with something new I like to load a dummy round long, paint the nose with a black marker and chamber. The black marker will witness how things are seating. If auto fitting the mags is something to consider too. For a revolver and plated make sure they don't set back on recoil.
Boats
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If somebody is planning on high round count competition & hot loads with a HP better to use one of the new cast frame guns. Way to tell is on the bottom of the mag well forged guns have serrations in the frame were the backstrap rolls over. Cast guns are smooth.
Way I handle it is use my BHP for carry and a few matches per year, shoot most competition with a S&W M&P. The modern plastic guns are better all around for match shooting. I just don't "like" them
Boats
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If I am cleaning a real dirty chamber I use a bronze bore brush with a couple of patches wrapped around. Wet them and rub in JB paste. I also use a home made short rod that does not swivel. Twist around good and lets the JB do it's job. The fixed brush that won't rotate makes a big difference. However any load that makes a chamber hard to clean ought to be changed to something that wipes out with a few passes.
Boats
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Corey
I have gone as much as 4.3 of Clays with 200 Gr LRN In my two S&W 625's They just make 165,000 PF in the 4 inch gun. But load I use the most is 3.9 of Clays. 200 if Not PF loads. 230's over the same powder charge if I need 165,000. One of my guns is a 3 inch and rarely used for competition other is a 4 and that's all it's used for. Clays is the way to go for revolvers, burns clean and allows long strings of reloads with no cleaning.
200 gr Lead SWC's in my two 1911's I use 5.6 of W 231 No reason that charge would no do well with the 200 gr RN too. My old 200 Gr SWC lead load in those pistols was 6.2 of Unique. The 231 burns cleaner than Unique. When I use up all the W 231 I have on hand will switch the Auto Pistols over to Clays too. One caution is new Hodgon Unique is a bit faster than the old Unique
I never use plated bullets in the 45 acp. No reason they won't work well however plain old lead does just fine. 800 fps or so is easy on bullets and no jackets or plate needed.
OA Length and crimp in all 4 guns is just a bit different. Not a lot but enough make a difference in performance & most important loading.
Boats
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Our Club longer range targets stand up Ok. 385 500 yards. They do show signs of bullets strike. 200 & 300 they get eaten up pretty quick, and a 223 ruins one at 200 in short order. We use whatever we can get no special steels.
It's the small hole, like drilling in steel when you start with a small drill and work up hole sizes.
Boats
M&P light strikes again
in S&W (M&P, etc)
Posted · Edited by Boats
Actualy the little bit of set back is not going to make much difference preasure wise and I have tested loads a bit over 3.7 as much as 3.9 They are noticibly hotter. At 3.7 grs with the 125 gr Zeros Clays preasure is right there were it should be. Might set 10 or so back and give them a seperate try.
Last match of Jan I had two FTF. Gun clears fast so match result probably added 4 sec total. About 3 or 4 places match standing down in the trenches were I shoot.
Boats