RufDog
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Posts posted by RufDog
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Thanks guys. Another question is would the 24" be illegal in any matches big? I plan on adding a 6 round tube, which would give me 9 in the tube. From what I have read, that is a problem in some matches unless I use a 1 round plug.
you'll be fine to use a plug if need be
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Thx for taking a closer look Chad A.
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Rufdog, I appreciate the fact that you do not think I understand what you are saying. Unfortunately I do understand the point that you are trying to get across. I am sorry that I have not communicated my points clearer, I will attempt to do a better job. I did not have any input in the rules of 3 gun nation or would I expect to. The decision makers at three gun nation picked this method on their own, and for their own reasons that I would not even care to guess about. If you want to play the game you play by the rules that they have set, if you don't like them, lobby them to change the rules, or don't play. Even with these rule changes I seriously question if many (if any) people will jump on the heavy metal or limited bandwagon to gain a shot at the finals. If someone can jump divisions and take first place and get a shot at the shoot off then they deserve to be there. Who worked harder or trained harder has no bearing on this discussion, it does not even matter who is a better shooter. You seem upset that T.O. shooters will somehow get the raw end of the deal, while this is noble I feel it is misguided. Under your example the guy that comes in 10th in heavy metal at three or more matches may very well get enough points to qualify for the finals, but how many people who would finish 10th in heavy metal will even attend three major matches? And how many of those would attend nationals, and the finals? Even with this equality of the divisions method of qualifying for the finals, the probability of some schmuck heavy metal shooter like me sneaking into the finals is very low. The most likely way that this rule will be exploited is by a T.O. shooter jumping divisions to try and make the finals if he or she does not feel they could swing it in their own division. Is it fair to the 11th placed T.O. shooter? In the eyes of the people that made the rules it is fair, and in this case that is all that matters. The person that wins the finals will not be the competitor that came in 10th in H.M. no matter what division he or she original wanted to play in. If someone thinks they can do better in a less popular division then more power to them. In the end the skill of the shooter is what picks the winner of the match, jockeying from one division to another may get a person qualified who would not be able to make it in T.O., but it wont help them win. The opportunity to change to a lesser represented class is available to all shooters, and as such is fair. The question as to wether it is a good idea to score this way is separate from the question of fairness, and I frankly don't care if it is a good way to qualify or not. Look at the current top ten in the standings and tell me which one of them does not belong? It looks to me like the scoring system is working so far. I think that the attention 3 gun nation has brought to our sport has been good, I am happy that some shooters where able to win some extra cash, I don't even mind if some people decide to try H.M. to because of it.
What Chad A said....
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Unless you are a serious threat to win the finals or a shoot off what difference does this method of keeping score really make.
ok, first off I don't care how many people shoot HM. Its a good program, have a ball. I'm sure I'll take a crack at it sometime. This isnt about liking or not liking a division. If I suck I shouldn't get into a shoot off though. The issue here is I really don't think you grasp what we are talking about. With the proposed 2011 scoring; A person could finish last in a field of 10 shooters 3 times in HM and beat out a guy that finished 11th in a field of 200 in TO. You tell me who had to fight harder, train more and generally put in more effort? The TO guy did. The whole point is this, if you do not go off of percentage a guy that is not a threat can land himself square into a shoot off just by shooting HM or TI based on the field being smaller.
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I have some thoughts on the issue. I'd like to say up front, I'm going to shoot anyway & its going to be great. Honestly, percentage is the way to go. It is absolutely the best option. I'm all about all the divisions & dont care who shoots what, but everybody ought to get their effort accurately reflected.
The reason the sport is getting so popular is tac optics and open. That's where all the product innovation is. That is also where tons of the sponsorships come in. Vortex, Leupold, FNH, etc.
Shoving people towards divisions they don't want to shoot is a bad idea. It in turn hurts sponsors that keep the sport going. There sure ain't much of a sponsor base to draw from for crusty-ass 200 year old M1A's that lots of the HM guys say you have to have if you want to win HM. (CMP gun prices are going to go through the roof!)
It'd be like USPSA shoving the revolver division down everyone's throat. We all like 3GN getting our sport mainstream, its cool, it helps. One thing 3GN is not... a sanctioning body. I'm sure its going to shake out. I guarantee you anyone with an understanding of this sport is busting Chad A's bean bag. He can comply or take the ache. Its not Chad's fault he doesn't understand all the details of the sport & I am sure a few notables are giving him sound advise. Lets try to not go make him feel like we are being combative and maintain a little emotional stability. A good relationship will (I would think?) be more fruitful. horse...water....
P.S.
Trapr, I'm going to empty that soap box in your mouth, you're such a rascal!
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I'm gonna shoot HO optics 3 times with my TO guns and take the penalties. I'll finish last but 5th place HO is way more points than 30th in TO
You're such a rascal Jesse...
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Many matches won't let you use it because the steel is considered a potential fire hazard.
Fire? seriously?
at my "home club" we set up on saturdays. then on sundays we shoot the actual USPSA pistol matches.
well, sometime between about noon on Saturday and 7 AM Sunday some @$$hat shot one of our steel poppers with a centerfire rifle.
I am assuming steel core ammo, most likely an AK.
the plate is something AR-ish.
I've shot AR500 with steel core inside of 50 w/223 & there was hardly a poc mark. In running a major 3 gun match, we had steel inside of 100 that was shot by over 200 people & it wasn't damaged. Maybe your club steel was AR400 or something.
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I really like my Razor 1-4. I am yet to take more than a second shot @ 400yd tgts this year. Depending on velocity etc, it matches up well with my buddies 69grs & I shoot 193 or 193 copies (55gr) & the reticle is SH.
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On stage 2, a plate that was hit, and fell down on the stand, and did not fall off the stand was NOT considered a hit.
Happened to Nick, after seeing it counted on other stages, he moved on, and got the FTN.
That was me, I was the CRO on stage 2, and I was the one that made those calls. I was consistant throughout the match on my stage, but found out later that other stages were calling those hits. I am sorry for the inconsistancy. My reasoning was that steel had to fall to score, and technically it was still on the stand. In every case that I saw, the shooter had actually hit the stand, not the target itself, and the target magically landed flat on the top of the stand. On other stages we were told shooting the stand was a no-go [think about center punching the shotgun spinners and knocking them all off] so I applied the same rationale to my stage. I did have 2 shooters manage to pick up the target by shooting it again, so while it was a more difficult shot, I wouldn't call it impossible.
If any shooters are peeved at me for being a hard-scorer, you can take solace in the knowledge that Karma caught up to me and I ended up catching splatter from almost every shooter, and counted 15 separate places on my arms and torso where I bled for the cause. To make matters worse, I also managed to find some poison ivy along the way, and am STILL dealing with that. So, whatever bad juju I built up, instant karma got me back.
On a positive note, here are my match videos for everyone to gain joy and humor from my ineptness:
http://www.youtube.com/barrysuperhawk
I also have some video of another RO that wanted it, but cannot seem to find his email address, so email me dude...
Barry, you are a true warrior of an RO. You rock!
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I don't care if it is counted or not, just make it the same on all stages.
I know its hard to make sure everything is treated the same at a match, so I'm not criticizing.
It was a great match, and I'm looking forward to shooting it next year.
noted, I appreciate your patience.
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I think it's appropriate calling a turned and basically, unavailable, steel a hit. I just didn't see it happen this year at this match, or I should say on the stages when I shot or ROed. Even FNH match in Fayette had the plate issue resolved after the fiasco in 2009.
A couple of plates did flip and land on the stand face down on Stage 6. I called every one of them a hit while I was ROing for all but a few hours Sunday AM.
Craig
I saw one face down when RO'ing your stage on Sun, I counted a hit. Thought nothing of it. It is good to get all the opnions on 5x5s, it helps to do better next time.
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Earlier in this thread Ruf said the pistol/shotgun plates were 5x5's. I thought they were MGM targets but they are telling me they don't make those, even though their website says they do. So can anyone tell me for sure what size they are and where to get them?
they were made @ a metal/welding shop
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Kurt, what can be done different w/ the 5x5 targets to keep them from shooting back?
Cheryl- good thing Michael can shoot a rifle better than a camera!!!!
I was about to PM the same thing Bryan. Ours are like everybody elses as far as I know & they were new. I'm thinking slope at abou 15 degrees is all a guy could do different. I think a couple things came into play, we let ppl get pretty close due to no fault lines & spectators were allowed close to the action too. I'd say in the end nobody would choose to change that as it was a matter of "free will" & I'm all about that.
Ruf
weld a lip on the base that covers the horizontal base thus presenting another vertical plane for the bullets to impact and divert from. this also prevents them from turning sideways.
ROGER, good copy on that.
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Kurt, what can be done different w/ the 5x5 targets to keep them from shooting back?
Cheryl- good thing Michael can shoot a rifle better than a camera!!!!
I was about to PM the same thing Bryan. Ours are like everybody elses as far as I know & they were new. I'm thinking slope at abou 15 degrees is all a guy could do different. I think a couple things came into play, we let ppl get pretty close due to no fault lines & spectators were allowed close to the action too. I'd say in the end nobody would choose to change that as it was a matter of "free will" & I'm all about that.
Ruf
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This was one of the best matches of the year. The 4 M.O.A. targets were great and I never heard any complaints about size. The targets were painted between squads, and the presentation was outstanding. The stages were fun and challenging without being overly hard phsically. Stage design was supperb!The only area I saw that needed a little tweeking was stage admin as a couple of them backed up a bit, but the problems were addressed by the match staff quickly and things got to flowing better. he other was the plates for pistol had horizobntal basses that could and did send bullet frags back. I know that that problem has been addressed and wopn't be happening again. I would have to say that this one is outstanding and I won't miss it in the futur if at all possible. KurtM
Thanks for the compliments & feed back. I think the admin/back up issue is on me for putting a little too much action on stage 6 & 9. I know now what I would have done different to alieveate that (isnt hind sight great?).
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could somebody describe to me how things were scored, please?
I thought...or rather HAD thought that all the outlaw 3 gun matches were time plus scoring, like IDPA, so it threw me for a loop when I saw Horner's name up top with like a gazillion points. then everyone below him had fewer or lesser points....totally opposite of IDPA.
Thanks!
Each stage was worth 100 points.
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seeing your car out there was a pleasure
Rental car. That thing was a warrior. It only took around $10 at the car wash to get it clean.
you know, the difference between a rental and a 4x4 is that you can take a rental anywhere........
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Finally got my internet up and working at the new house.
Here's Kyle O shooting Tac Irons with his Eotech.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI6zFqlLI_I
Here's my match. Probably the worst shooting I've ever done at a 3 gun match, but I had a blast. Shotgun decided to start choking on me. Glasses fogging up. Mental mistakes, etc. I'll definitely be back next year.
And yes, we were the idiots in the gold colored Mercury Grand Marquis sliding around in the mud.
seeing your car out there was a pleasure
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jtischauser, Good video, bad deal with the rifle breakage, but good shooting none the less. Anyone with any pics or other videos?
You can see photos I took at www.nrablog.com, click on the "3-gun" tag to the left to see the feed of stories and pics.
SQUIRREL
& I'm there
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Great match guys! Thanks to the match directors, R.O.'s and volunteers for all the hard work, this match was a great balance of 3-gun action
Marcey and I had a blast and will definitely make this an annual event.
I do have one question though. Who was the little red headed kid/Entrepreneur? If his parents will check his pockets there may be a pretty good start on a college fund
Jeremy
That was my boy Jack. I had him count it @ home & I'm pretty sure he's holding out on me.
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we really appreciate the compliments guys.
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Would it cost anything to stop in and watch for awhile? Not going to be able to shoot but will be at the Lake some this weekend and would like to stop by and check it out for part of a day or so. Kind of a teaser and make it something to look forward to next year.
watching is free, stop on in.
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From earlier posts, it seemed like ROs shot on Friday and competitors shot on Saturday and Sunday. From a recent Facebook post, it looks like competitors shoot Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Straighten me out, please.
Looking forward to the match and hopefully some cooler weather than we are having in Florida.
Cheryl, Fri/Sat/Sun is correct.
-Damon
Vortex Optics Kool Aid Likes and dislikes
in Multi-gun Gear & Accessories
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I have a razor 1-4, 5-20, PST 4-16 & Razor spotting scope, binos etc. I have been OVERWHELMINGLY happy with them all and everyone that I share them with has been equally impressed. My eyes are getting worse every year and good glass helps. I do not know about a comparison of every one of their products but I did recently look through my binos side by side with same spec swarvo binos. Vortex was better and the swarvo owner pointed it out to me, I was surprised to hear that.