Horus scopes and reticles

[M ammo]

Hey Jim,

Wow, 750 yds with .223 under the clock? Bet that was fun...

As I was "trying 3 gun" after years of pistol-only competition as of a couple of years ago, I can definitely relate. The thing that bugged me the most was the typical 3 gun optics with stadia lines that never matched my loads. So I'd have to remember the "use the 500 yd stadia for my 440 yd hits", etc. And, I was using a 3.5x TA11 which for my aging eyes, wasn't cutting it at RockyMtn distances (350-600 yds).

Then, I jumped into the LR scene with both feet. FirstFocalPlane Reticles, MilReticles/MilTurrets behind quality glass and Gen2 reticles (dots or hashes) completely revolutionized my thinking. This is combined with considerable load and dope sheet development. Now, I run a FFP, 1.25-6x USO with a mil-based reticle (USO's C2) for 3 gun (with JPoint for CQ stuff since I'm an Open shooter). And, I'll probably entertain the S&B ShortDot 1-8x or Premier 1-8x when they're available.

BUT, my LR experience changed the way I approach 3 gun. Like you, I have a dope sheet(s) for my loads for the DensityAltitude(s) where I'll be shooting. All done as part of match prep.

Granted, there's seldom time to dial between targets on a 3 gun stage. But I do find that dialing (pre stage) to some intermediate distance and then doing subtle (e.g., .2-.5 mil adjustment via the reticle) works pretty well. The Horus would be overkill for this application.

Within the LR community, there is a very clear "std recipe" developing around the mil/mil (or MOA/MOA), FFP (so you don't have different dope for different mag factors), Gen2 reticles, and good quality glass. That's the only real point of my prior post. My experience is with the newer high quality designs, the appeal of a Horus reticle has diminished.

I shot the scope in a match,,,, all short range stuff,,, and doing some testing of my Dope,, I shot 250. 500 and 750,,, not on the clock,,,

but I did get off the bench and mono pod a bit,, out to 500,,, and i can get my hits,, hohohohoho..

RM3G and one of those SOF pins,, is my goal,, I hope I got a feel for it the past 2 years, and I too am not getting any younger,

knowing my dope out to 600,, for that match,, is key,, the 200-400 yd range,, makes for some real rifle shooting,, I tried HM scoped last year,, but this year I'm back to,, my normal equipment, making sure all of my stuff works,, and practice, is all I'm doing this year,, no HM, heavy lalalala for me,,,

getting the ammo to match the scope,,,, back asswards,,

[FB3GDQ]

My $.02 is that Horus reticles are passe from the LR competitive shooting perspective. Before FFP, Mil/Mil high quality glass scopes with the current generation of reticles (Gen2 XRs, Gen2 MilDots, P4Fine,...) were pervasive, the Horus concept was gaining popularity out of necessity.

Today, I don't see the benefit or actual usage in LR Tactical competitions. Hoser: name a competitor using a Horus at RatonSportingRifle or SteelSafari or ???. Matt Burkett was a Horus supporter awhile back; not sure what he's using now but I'm willing to bet he moved on as well.

And, you can quote antecdotal stories of what military field operators are using all day -- different application under different field conditions. I question how much the Horus reticles are being deployed? Is that why the USMC awarded PR a big contract or S&B's continuing run?

My advice would be to spend that hard earned cash getting a quality FFP, Mil/Mil (or MOA/MOA if you must) with a current generation reticle with demarks for holdover and windage. That way you have the choice of dialing or holding over (most everyone dials for elevation, holds for wind). Sure, if you don't have tactical turrets with repeatable capabilities, you're forced to use the reticle to do it all. That's not the case today. For tons more background on this, go lurk on SnipersHide and you'll see 50x more posts, interest, chatter about S&B, Zeiss/Hensoldt, PremierReticles, USO, Nightforce, Vortex nominally using Gen2 versions of reticles, not Horus (although you can certainly get them still). Remember, any reticle with the whisper of Horus in it and you're paying the licensing/royalty fees. If that's how you want to spend your money, have at it.

Sir I am sure that the Horus reticule is being deployed a lot more than you are implying.

[Ken Kwiat]

Possibly. I have no data other than my antedoctal experience of being a frequent SnipersHide poster/reader and my experience with LR tactical competition. I can't remember seeing anyone use a Horus reticle (in competition) in the past two years (small sample size admitted).

Do you have data to support the recent scope contract suppliers (to sniper units) are being supplied/retrofitted with Horus reticles? Are the Leupys? What % of total?

This site is focused on competitive shooting sports -- that's my experience base and opinion angle. The original question came from the competitive LR angle, not mil/LEO. And, I openly subscribe to the philosophy of "get the best glass you can afford". Siphoning off that much of what the gent had to spend on a "licensed" reticle given what's available in the market, is not what I would recommend. It's his money and he spent it as a free man should -- sounds like it's working for him.

[M ammo]

BDC recitals', are just now hitting the 3 gun arena in force, they have been out for a while,, but now everyone is making one.

Sooner or later other people will get tired of, trying to match, ammo to the scope,

Backasswards and getting the scope to match the ammo,, putting the horse in front of the kart as it should be.

I do know from a training stand point, it is much easier to send a team out with a dope card, and a Horus,

Than it is to teach someone to, do all of the other steps required to get a rifle set up for combat.

And believe it or not the gun part of a mission is probably less than %20 of the mission. And all of the other things that the solder has to do, on a mission takes more effort and B.S.+++ than, most people want to know. It sure takes the fun out of it,,

I now know of two people that shoot a Horus for 3 Gun,, FB3GDQ and me.

[Religious Shooter]

It's "RETICLE".

If you have ever seen "Top Sniper" on the Military Channel, the 2010 match's service class was won by a team that used the Horus reticle.

Horus propaganda...

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Horus at the 2010 International Sniper Competition

Fort Benning, GA - October 13-15, 2010 - The buzz from the 2010 International Sniper Competition resonated with a bang this year- new structure, new approach, and a lot of talk about a sniper tool with the 'edge.'

The new structure and approach was in regards to the organization of the event. In previous years, the competition consisted of a five-day stretch with eight hours of rest each day. This year was an intense 72-hour competition, where participating teams were allotted a total of four hours to rest total. The vendor show and shoot, previously held in separate locations was joined as one, which resulted in a successful networking opportunity between vendors and military personnel.

And then of course, the tool with a lot of talk- this was none other than the Horus reticle, which was embedded in the scopes of the top three winners in the service class, and two of the three in the open class. The keynote speaker at the Awards Banquet even mentioned Horus' reticle in his speech, "It's not all about the Horus reticle while winning these competitions, although it does give those who use it the 'edge'."

The Horus reticle was prominent within the competition and it proved to add an edge, particularly to the winning team of the service class, consisting of SGT 1st Class Chance Gianelli and SGT 1st Class Edward Homeyer of the D Co 2nd BN 1st SWTG, Range 37 Special Forces Sniper Course. Gianelli used a Horus Vision Falcon H37 scope, while his partner Homeyer used a Nightforce scope with a Horus H58 reticle embedded within.

The turret on Homeyer's Nightforce scope broke right before the competition, inhibiting adjustment capabilities. In addition, competition rules denied equipment replacement, meaning Homeyer had to make do with the broken scope. Because Homeyer had the Horus reticle, which he fortunately zeroed out before the turret broke; he was able to continue in the competition using "holdovers" and the unique feature of 2nd Shot Correction. If he and his partner were off on their first shot, the reticle grid gave them the advantage of instantly correcting their shot to hit the target on the next attempt. This feature would not have been available on a normal mil-dot scope.

Despite the mishap of Homeyer's scope, he and Gianelli were still able to take the win with a score of 1,258 points out of the possible 1,507.

As mentioned before, five of the six winning teams all used Horus reticles within their scopes in the competition, but all six had been exposed to the Horus System through training with Accuracy 1st. Most of the top teams were also using Horus' ATrag software to true, verify, and plan their shotting stages.

By fate, Horus Vision happened to be seated with the third place team in the Open Class, SSG Caleb Perkins and SGT Andrew McElroy, the only placing team not using the Horus System in the competition. They jokingly blamed Horus Vision for their lower finish, since they were unable to obtain Horus equipment prior to the match, but had previous training with it and knew the advantage it served.

The third place team actually got their hands on a Horus scope after the competition and contacted Horus Vision to say, "You are increasing our lethality on the battlefield...So now I hope you sleep better at night knowing that."

And to tell you the truth, we do sleep better at night knowing we are contributing to a greater cause. Events such as the International Sniper Competition help us understand the needs of our soldiers, which help us evolve to better suit them in an ever changing world of combat. Getting to speak first hand with the men and women who volunteer to sacrifice their lives everyday really adds a whole new perspective.

Horus Vision served as Platinum Sponsors for the 2010 International Sniper Competition, but that was the least we could do for priceless soldiers putting their lives on the line. Horus was part of the buzz, but let it not be forgotten- the soldiers are still the ones creating the bang- and they deserve all our appreciation for their unselfish service.

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A Personal Account With Horus in the Competition

By SFC Edward Homeyer

"Originally I was going to spot for Chance, but earlier in July while training at Accuracy 1st, we discovered that we work a little better with Chance calling winds and me shooting.

"Around mid September Chance got a hold of our committees 16" Larue Tactical OBR with a 5-25x50 Horus Falcon with a H37 reticle. He zeroed it, trued using the ATrag software and immediately started getting hits on 12" plates out beyond 850 meters. I was going to originally shoot my M24 with my Falcon. But four days before the comp I got my hands on a 20" Larue Tactical OBR.

"Two days before the comp I received my scope. It was a Nightforce first focal plane 3.5-15x50 with a Horus Vision H58 reticle in it. I put it on my gun and went to zero. After my initial group I went to make my adjustment. That's when I realized that one of the zero stop screws had broken off in the scope. With the elevation cap off I used a screwdriver and some elbow grease to turn the knob and zero my crosshairs at 100 meters. It was almost dark when I finished that.

"The next day Chance and I went out and trued at 900 meters in a 12" plate. I shot a few intermediate range targets to ensure the data matched. That night I got my zero shift with my PVS 26 at 100, 200 and 400 meters. My night vision zero shift was Left .2 mils. That was what I fired less than 35 rounds through a gun I never touched before and we used it to win overall at the International Sniper Comp. It is a testament to Horus Vision, the ATrag, and the Horus reticle.

"My gun was driving tacks at Ft Benning and Chance was making all the right calls. We used Accuracy 1st's short wind formula to calculate our wind holds. When my zero stop broke I lost all ability to dial elevation. I held over for every shot of the comp. The only time I touched my elevation knob was to dial on my night vision zero shift. By not touching our dials we were able to engage multiple targets quickly without ever breaking cheek stock weld. Losing the ability to dial doesn't make long shots impossible.

"I had to hold 14.2 mils on one shot during the day unknown distance, that put my hold near the bottom of the scope. Since I couldn't dial a few mils on, I just reduced the power from 15 to about 13. This allowed me to avoid any distortion by bringing the hold up away from the edge of the scope.

"The final shot of the comp had Chance and I each firing one round at two Larue targets 800 meters away. We decided to use a drill we teach in school. We had two minutes to fire our rounds. Instead of spotting for each other we laid down side by side. Chance was holding 9.7 mils on his target and I was holding 8.7 mils on mine. I held up my Kestrel to get a base line wind speed, estimated the value of the downrange wind through my rifle scope and gave Chance his wind hold. When I said right .5 Chance (who was already holding over 9.7) immediately held R.5 and broke his shot. I was holding over 8.7 and R.5 on my target, but observing Chances shot. When I saw his target fall I immediately broke my shot. And since we were the same range, same wind, same hold my shot was also a hit.

"By holding the same wind on my target, as Chance is observing his splash, it gives me the opportunity to correct my shot off of his. If his round would have hit .2 mils right of his target, I would have immediately held R.3 and shot. In my opinion this method gives a team a high probability of making a solid second round hit. This method is successful because of the accuracy of the Horus reticle. I don't have to guess where his shot went. I can see within .1 mils where it is. There are enough variables in sniping already. Knowing exactly where your round hit takes one of those variables away.

"I believe the days of gathering data at every meter line are numbered. If you have a gun that can group sub minute, an ATrag, a Kestrel and a range to true your muzzle velocity on ,then you don't need to fire more than 10 rounds to get a range card from 100 meters to just prior to subsonic flight. If you want to accurately shoot past subsonic, just extrapolate your BC, input that data and you can shoot as far as you can call winds and spot rounds.

"I know this is long winded. But what you can do with these tools are really only limited by the consistency of your shooter and the skill of your spotter. I consider Chance a good friend of mine and one of the best spotters in the world. He will consistently call winds within 1mph, but what good is the best wind call if you don't have the capability as a shooter to exploit it? Dialing winds breaks cheek to stock weld and by the time you get back on the gun you are probably going to hold a correction anyway, guessing what a 1/4 or a half mil hold is. Why not just hold that wind call within .1mils when your spotter says it in the first place? With a Horus reticle in .2 mil increments you can and we do.

"I could go on and on about the Horus reticle and the ATrag program. And it feels like I already have. The capabilities of this system are endless. I've built range cards in my ATrag from my glock 17 9mm to the M107 Barrett .50 cal. I've learned more in one weekend by playing through different scenarios on my ATrag than I have in months on the range. All the work is done by the time you get to the range, all you have to do is concentrate on your cold bore shot and wind calls. Alright I'm done for real this time."

[M ammo]

Ok today I did shoot a percision Rifle match, tgts from 3 yards to 481 yards with 15 mph cross wind,,

How sweet it is to have all of my holds,, in one place,, drops and wind,, 2 mil hold for wind,, was MONEY!

Very happy,,

Jim M ammo

[rstimpfling]

I am reading the responses with so much excitement. I have decided to go with the Horus reticle for sure. My only remaining question is what scope to put it in. I am not asking that question as there are 100's if not 1000's of posts in various forums to review the manufacturer choice. It will be obviously restricted to those manufactures that have a Horus option. Anyone having a list of those manufactures, I would love to see it. Thank you everyone for your posts and opinions. Now do I get the H37 or the H58 reticle. Decisions, decisions.

Robert

[FB3GDQ]

I am reading the responses with so much excitement. I have decided to go with the Horus reticle for sure. My only remaining question is what scope to put it in. I am not asking that question as there are 100's if not 1000's of posts in various forums to review the manufacturer choice. It will be obviously restricted to those manufactures that have a Horus option. Anyone having a list of those manufactures, I would love to see it. Thank you everyone for your posts and opinions. Now do I get the H37 or the H58 reticle. Decisions, decisions.

Robert

Robert

You would not go wrong with either reticle,but I would go with the H58 in a long rang scope. The H58 will give you plenty of wind hold with 2 mil's on each side of center of the reticle, but it will also give you a lot of clean glass on each side of the reticle. The H58 will also let you see the number references on the sides of the reticle.

The arch going over the top of the reticle is a quick ranging grind on 12 inch targets.

[00bullitt]

I'm glad to see NF is now installing the H58 in their F1 scopes. Granted it costs several hundred more than the normal reticles that NF offers due to the licensing of the Horus reticle designs.